Hi all,

Please see this video I created https://youtu.be/PUSjKGyBef4

I would like to get your thoughts on what I see here. I am using an older desktop computer and when I upgraded to Windows 10, the computer became unusable. Even though I was using a non LED external monitor, a monitor which I have used for years without issue.

I hope this helps anyone interested in this sort of thing. Also note, that I also use a Macbook air with OS big sur which is ok, but still gives me a headache/dizziness/migraine after a while. The Paperlike doesn't function on the Macbook air though. It tends to restart itself over and over on the Mac OS unfortunately.

Very interesting. Could that mean that to measure Windows 10's temporal dithering we'd need to move the mouse pointer while capturing? But it could also mean that after disabling the graphics adapter there's still a different kind of temporal dithering that the Dasung either actively filters out or considers not important enough to update the whole screen. It seems the device will only update a portion of the screen, and only if something larger changes/moves, like the mouse cursor. The AMD dithering algorithm may trigger such refreshes constantly.

I think that's more likely. 2 different temporal dithering algorithms. The AMD GPU probably constantly outputs temporal dithering at all times (even in BIOS screens), and the algorithm changes when an AMD driver is loaded.

  • Zazu replied to this.

    The Dasung monitor will be doing a lot of processing of the video signal as Eink works quite differently to normal sample and hold displays. This could be part of what is seen.

    • Zazu replied to this.

      KM I do see the mouse cursor dithering effect while the graphics driver was still installed. With the graphics driver installed there is still the screen-wide flicker in addition to the mouse cursor dithering effect. Once the driver is uninstalled, the mouse cursor flicker effect is the only one that remains. Interestingly, My Macbook air has the same situation. Screen fciler and mouse cursor flicker. The only thing is on mac, when some web pages load it effects the screen and it restarts. It is usually with popups from websites or apps, or with carousel/canvas type effects on web pages.

      I am dead scared to start using the external monitor (Non-led LCD) again, as even though I deleted the driver, I really dont want to trigger a migraine! I suppose I will just have to bite the bullet and try.

        Seagull Maybe, I am not too clued up on how this all works. Do you think that what I am seeing is, perhaps, not even OS / Graphics card dithering at all?

            Zazu

            At a guess, the screen wide dithering is the AMD dithering, as far I know all AMD hardware dithers by default, but I've only tested two cards. The mouse moving dithering, I believe that is probably the Dasung's fault.

                Are you able to use your computer with the paperlike? From your youtube video it seams unusable for me cause to the high amount of dithering!

                Edit: it would be interesting to see if with windows 10 2015 LTSB the situation improves.

                • Zazu replied to this.

                  By the way, I've definitely seen dithering associated with moving the mouse cursor on a dasung monitor before on here.

                    Seagull I did a few videos with my Dasung Paperlike Pro. I also observed the moving the cursor effect. I never thought to uninstall the drivers though. I was using Intel integrated and there was only flicker when moving the mouse and only to the bottom and right of the cursor. The dithering algorithm was much harsher on Windows 10 than Windows 7. Shame I never tried Windows 10 2015 LTSB. I still have the Paperlike though and may pull it out for a new round of videos. I deleted the old ones as they were too personally identifying, but the thread is still around. The other interesting effect I saw was that using software like f.lux triggered dithering at all times, like Zuzu has with his AMD adapter.

                        Lauda89 I can use it without issues so far. I havent had it for too long, so perhaps I havent had enough experience with it yet.

                        I set it on the second slowest mode. In which the flicker is only visible to me sometimes on greyish type tones. Generally it seems fine. If I set it to fast mode, in which the flicker is imperceptible. I can feel a headache coming on, with dizziness.

                        • KM likes this.

                          degen I didnt think of the whole personal identification thing. Um, do you think having my desktop ID there is an issue?

                            Seagull Strange. The Dasung is a great piece of tech, but it does feel a bit, well, beta. If that makes sense. It seems rather unpolished and incomplete.

                              Try to turn off AMD dithering. In the AMD software, there is the settings->system tab, you open up the hardware detail, and you will see a 2D Driver File Path.
                              Go there in regedit, inside the 0000 folder you have to make a "HDMI_DisableDither" dword, and set it to 1. Then restart the pc, and the dithering should be gone. If you dont use HDMI connection you need some different command.

                              degen Try it in YCbCr mode with the Intel integrated in W10 instead of RGB, there won't be dithering. Or at least there isn't on my HD Graphics 6000.

                                  Sunspark I'm worried about letting the monitor perform FRC. In the Pcmonitors.info review for my BenQ monitor it says that when connected via HDMI the GPU performs the dithering, and with DP the monitor performs the dithering. So I was thinking if I connct via HDMI and run ditherig that's my best chance on no dithering since the GPU should be requested to perform it but is not.

                                      degen That's why I said turn on YCbCr to test. The GPU won't dither over hdmi in that mode and the monitor will do whatever it wants to do. This is a very easy test because if you display a greyscale gradient at 100% actual size, if you see banding on it there is no dithering from the GPU happening. In RGB mode, all things being equal, there is no banding visible because the GPU is dithering it on top of what the monitor is doing already. It's stupid, but in W10 on my PC I use YCbCr and on the same machine in W7 I use RGB. Driver version # is different in both OSes.

                                          Sunspark Maybe I don't know where to look, but when I have the Dasung connected to Windows 10, I don't get an option for YCbCr anywhere.

                                              degen it says that when connected via HDMI the GPU performs the dithering, and with DP the monitor performs the dithering

                                              Wait... what?

                                                  screenjunky It's mandatory that the connection be via HDMI. In driver properties click on Display icon, in sidebar click on Color Settings, then on the main pane, click on Advanced and click on enable under YCbCr. For good measure, under General Settings in the sidebar under Advanced, click on Full for Quantization Range and Disable for IT Content.

                                                    dev