Laptop for those with PWM and flickering sensitivity

HAL9000 Yes it would be interesting to know what is it that makes an older Lenovo TN or IPS good for us, but newer with better color screens are not. PWM is an issue for me in those Lenovos also, so I have to keep the brightness at 100% as not to have the PWM enabled.

just a status update. I had to return the Lenovo Legion 5 Pro. I was able to used it a full workday, but in the afternoon my eyes started to feel strained and then the whole evening my eyes were irritated and dry. Not that badly bloodshot as with a PWM screen, but clearly there is some flicker in that screen, maybe from temporal dithering.

Again, I could rest my eyes with the HP desktop monitor or a Sony TV after using the laptop for a day. So it is not my eyes per se, it is the bad display.

I'm still testing the Asus Oled. Not sure yet, as I've not had a chance to used it like I would on a typical workday. But I'm pretty sure it is better than the LCD screens. I use it over 52 brightness where there is only a minor dip in the brightness at 60Hz.

I was able to use Galaxy S2 6 years ago without problems, it was and has been practically the Only Oled phone without PWM.

So, the Asus Oled is going back as well.

After using it a full day and also in the evening, my eyes are quite irritated today.

After testing 5 laptops from different manufactures, Intel / AMD. LCD/Oled, there just is not a modern laptop that I could use.
I probably could survive with the OLED, ensuring its above 52% brightness. But I would need to limit my daily usage to a few hours. Only time would tell how much I could use it on a daily basis. But then again, there will be long workdays when I need to watch the screen for 10-12h, so I need a laptop that will not irritate my eyes.

Now I'm "resting" my eyes with this HP desktop monitor for today and maybe I'll try a couple of days more, but it is clear that the OLED is also straining my eyes.

Some people would say that of course your eyes get tired after watching a screen for 10 h. No, they will not get tired watching this HP desktop monitor or an older Lenovo with poor screen. They will also not get tired watching a Sony LCD TV without PWM. Nor reading a book even in situations when I have a real page turner and read it during the day and most of the night.

So the problem really is in the screens, not my eyes. Yes, my eyes might be more sensitive than most people, but manufactururers should still be able to make screens that do not irritate the eyes.

I've heard this countless times from people who are oblivious to this problem that their eyes get tired or they get a migraine after a long workday. It IS the flickering in the screens that is causin the issue, it is not their eyes or their migraine. They would not have the problem with a screen that does not flicker.

It is also not blue light. The blue light hype is the most outrageous marketing bs that is going around nowadays. These Eye Care moninors that supposedly emit less blue light. People's eyes do not get strained outdoors on a clear sky day, thought the amount of blue light is massive in comparison to any screen available. Blue light does not irritate eyes. Flicker does.

The vendors have had so many claims about irritaeted eyes, that they have come up with the marketing idea that it is blue light that is the problem, as they are not able to manaufacture screens that would have 100% RGB coverage and would not have temporal dithering.

One thing I would like to confirm is to get a 10 bit desktop monitor without PWM, to see if the lack of temporal dithering would show that it really is the 8 bit + 2 bit FRC that causes the issue. I'm pretty sure it is. In my case the drivers or the other hardware does not have any affect. It is the actual display panel tech that is causing the issue, since no matter what hardware and software I have with the HP desktop monitor, it will not irritate my eyes. Also if I connect a laptop that irritates my eyes to this HP desktop monitor, it will not irritate my eyes, but the laptop panel will.

Yes, this is clear, the spectrum favors blue light. But the blue light from a screen is 1 and the blue light from the blue sky is 100 or more. So even if the spectrum favors blue, I don't buy the idea that it would irritate the eyes.

Macular degeneration or some other very long term eye problems could arise from staring a blue light 10h a day, I think there is some science behind that, but I have not seen any science that looking at a non flickering blue light would irritate the eyes.

In the article suns spectrum is measured most likely by taking direct sunlight. But what is the spectrum if they would measure only the light that reflects back from the blue sky?

Or what if a person is in a room painted blue lit by blue light. I don't think there would be any eye strain

So I do understand thei point with the blue light but my opinion is that it is just hype generated by marketing people, I have not seen any scientific studies showing that the blue light from a non flickering light source would irritate the eyes.

I think that in most cases they have just mixed flicker with blue light as the flicker is something (temporal dithering) that cannot be measure.

Could you detail your rig how you video temporal ditering?

@JTL Yes, I agree that staring at a blue light for hours every day might not be good for eye or sleep health. So I agree that the lightspectrum should be as close to natural sunlight as possible.

But does the blue light spike in the spectrum actually cause any significant eye strain? Not at least for me and presumably to most people, since most people do not experience any eye strain from any screen, even with PWM or Temporal Dithering.

So that's why I argue that the marketing BS about blue light is misleading as it tries to connect blue light to eye strain, while most people do not experience any eye strain with screens. Those who do, the cause is most of the time PWM or dithering.

I was thinking if the dithering could be detected by purchasing a cheap microscope and filming that with a dlsr or even mobile phone.

@Phip Is it the OLED version - that surely cannot be PWM free?
Are you in the same situation that PWM AND temporal dithering is a problem?

Just realized that my HP ZR2740w is a 10 bit (8+2 FRC) so Temporal dithering? I don't know. But this monitor has given me zero eye strain for the past 10 years no matter how much I used it and with what kind of hardware.

The only thing I can think of is that I have some 5 years old Nvidia 970 card - maybe that then did not yet have the technology that the newer ones have, which is producing the eye strain in more recent laptops?

Oh what a frustrating problem this is. I may need to start hoarding old Lenovos to be able to work eye strain free when not at home.

So a bit an addition to the above - now I'm quite baffled on why the HP display is completely eye strain free, as it DOES have temporal dithering.

What can be the cause, since it is not Windows version, using Ubuntu or different display adapters?

What gives? What could be the source of irritation in all of the laptop displays, since PWM is overruled and the Desktop HP monitor does not give eye strain even though it has temporal dithering?

How can this be so difficult to find out what gives the eye strain apart from PWM?

Could it be the way the FRC is implemented? It does not seem to be the latency of the panel, since the HP panel is quite fast and can be used for gaming.

Does anyone have any idea?