Win10 finally caught up to me, and I might be losing my career because of it

ensete

Been a while, but unfortunately, the world has caught up to me. I had a working Windows 7 laptop for work that caused me 0 issues whatsoever. I was able to "fly under the radar" so to speak with a combination of exceptions and approved ADA requests, but last week I was told that Windows 7 is no longer allowed due to "security reasons" (which no one can ever explain when asked why) and I had to move to Windows 10. I had them build a desktop for me that I could install a custom video card and give me admin access on the machine, but I knew the truth: Windows 10 triggers my migraines and there is no solution other than not use Windows 10. And unfortunately that is no longer an option. Since I can't work with a migraine, and I can't work without a computer, I expect to be fired relatively shortly

The worse thing is that it's inescapable. If I go get a new job, they will undoubtedly be using Windows 10 there, and I'm back in the same predicament. So here I am a middle aged guy with a family and freaking Windows is forceably ending my career. I tried reaching out to Microsoft and of course they don't give a crap, just a generic "we'll pass this along" which means it gets deleted since who cares about one guy in a sea of billions.

I've been trying to get the desktop working for me but it's the same old story every time I try: Identical monitor, identical video card, identical drivers, Identical ICC profiles, Identical everything to the Windows 7 build, and nothing makes a difference. I do believe I found the main culprit at least in my case, it seems to be the desktop compositor, DWM.exe. In Windows 7 and earlier, you could disable DWM but enabling "Classic Mode" (which I always did) and that solved the issue. Starting in Windows 8 Microsoft removed the option to disable DWM, so you are stuck with it. There are some hackarounds to delete DWM but they all result in an unusable Windows environment.

I'm not sure why I am posting this story, I guess I always hope that maybe there is the one "answer" we are all looking for to solve our issue, but I know it doesn't exist. I have a little bit of money stashed away to keep me going for a bit, but after that, I don't know what I am going to do. It's a real tough spot to be in. I feel silly saying "Windows ended my career" but it really did, and it's a serious issue, and the fact no one cares or takes it seriously is the toughest part.

I'm going to be trying a new assault of things to try and make Win10 usable for me, and I will share them here, but honestly I have less than zero expectations they will work. I guess I just wanted to share how bad it can get for folks like us.

bkdo

ensete

I’m really sorry to hear about your situation. I’ve had issues with work due to this issue as well, so I understand what you’re feeling to an extent. At the very least, this issue should be considered a disability and there should be some kind of public support for it IMO. Screens are nearly required for daily life now, it’s crazy to me that there’s very little noise about this.

diop

ensete

I hear you. I posted about this prior to Windows 7 End Of Life as I was thinking about this scenario some years back. That we would be in a situation where there are no safe upgrades anymore.

All I know is a desk job, and as I'm now in my mid-30's I was considering doubling-down, getting some certs and going back into the IT game. But after years of no resolution to this issue I have no excitement about tech anymore. Why would I want to be a part of the industry that doesn't care about me? Also as you know, this isn't just an issue with work machines but everything screen-based. This affects our personal lives just as much as it does our careers.

Here in the UK there are disability benefits available, however I doubt it would compare to the salary I would be receiving in an IT position. Also as I have no physical disabilities, I expect the state would decline any benefit claims and suggest I start manual work.

On a positive note I've heard from @si_edgey and others that they have found usable W10 machines within the last 12 months. Maybe try the laptop noted in the other thread, however I understand that trying to convince a corporate IT dept you need a gaming laptop to do your job won't necessarily go down well. There is hope with Apple devices (we know companies like Amulet Hotkey can disable dithering), however this requires a several thousand of (insert currency here) dongle to work.

I sometimes think threads like these should be the impetus to share this site's information and community across several platforms such as Reddit/Discord/Facebook/Twitter in order to attract a potentially larger audience.

JTL

Sorry to hear of your situation, here are some of my thoughts.

ensete I had a working Windows 7 laptop for work that caused me 0 issues whatsoever. I was able to "fly under the radar" so to speak with a combination of exceptions and approved ADA requests, but last week I was told that Windows 7 is no longer allowed due to "security reasons" (which no one can ever explain when asked why) and I had to move to Windows 10

I can (probably) explain their reasoning to you.

a) This an assumption on my part, since I don't know your company, but I wouldn't be surprised if they based their applications, images and hardware around using Windows 10. Windows 7 ended official updates in January 2020.

b) A Windows 7 system even with recent security patches will never be as secure as a Windows 10 system against various types of security issues. Depending on the confidentially of your day to day work and what you have access to, this may very well be a valid concern from your IT department.

Now Microsoft does have extended updates for Windows 7 on a licensed basis, but see point b) made above. I suspect the reason this option exists in the first place is there are big companies with industrial manufacturing machines with custom hardware where "rebasing" the underlying Windows version takes years of busywork and validation (Remember all those old computers running XP after 2014?)

Regardless. If all goes by the published schedule. I think this is just buying time because the extended updates are scheduled to be discontinued in 2023.

Now towards your problem at hand…

ensete I've been trying to get the desktop working for me but it's the same old story every time I try: Identical monitor, identical video card, identical drivers, Identical ICC profiles, Identical everything

ensete I'm going to be trying a new assault of things to try and make Win10 usable for me, and I will share them here, but honestly I have less than zero expectations they will work

What I'd probably do if i was in your position and with the hardware I have access to, is do some experimentation with lossless capture between a "known good" setup and a "bad" setup while keeping as many variables as the same and comparing differences in the signal between the two. While I believe @Seagull probably ruled out some sort of flicker in the video signal during his tests, this isn't rocket science and there HAS to be something different causing issues here between two systems displaying otherwise "identical" content.

Lauda89

ensete

Did you try old versions of W10? Because if you are fine with them you can use the W10 2015 LTSC, W10 2016 LTSC or W10 2018 LTSC. With these versions, you will receive only the security patch and nothing else so you should be fine. 🙂

Another option could be to try W11 and also new GPU AMD and Nvidia.

Last chance, if you live in the US you can try the neurolens: https://www.neurolenses.com/

Sunspark

Sorry you are having a hard time.

One suggestion I can make, I don't use the same settings in 10 as I do with 7, so try putting your card in YCbCr mode instead of RGB in 10.

Quad43

Sunspark

Any way to do this easily? Option is blocked in my Nvidia control panel

JTL

diop however I understand that trying to convince a corporate IT dept you need a gaming laptop to do your job won't necessarily go down well

From what I've seen with accommodations at various IT related companies, it's not entirely unreasonable given how some people with back/nerve problems get really nice office chairs and such. One problem with big companies is they often like to standardize on a single set of hardware, so getting hardware that's outside of the "set" and having it supported by "your" company can be more difficult.

mike

What happens when you cover one eye and look at the screen? Is it the same? You have to look for a while, so you really can tell if it’s different.

I have been in a similar situation like you so i know the felling, it sucks big time. Training with one eye covered was the solution for me. If it worked for me, it may work for you.

AgentX20

I don't have an easy answer, beyond earlier versions of Win 10 being somewhat easier on the eyes.

Could you run Win10 with the generic video driver ie no accelleration?

Can you try Linux?

Maybe an e-paper screen?

I too have the same worries and stresses - and cling to my 2013 MacBook Pro (which is PERFECTLY useable) on an older MacOS - fearing, make that dreading, the day it expires…

thorpee

Can you offset some of your work onto your windows 7 laptop without them knowing?

You could sync a network drive folder with resilio sync and then access the work files on your win 7 machine. Use your work win10 machine as a file server/ sync machine and never look at it again.

Are you allowed to work from home?

If you do lose your job, have you considered freelancing from your win 7 laptop.
Some companies contract staff from home and don't care what systems they use.
Lastly maybe mowing lawns, ubering, buying a food truck.
Taking out a loan and purchasing an established business with guaranteed income?

ryans

What is the nature of your work? Is an e-ink display an option?

I recently came across this Kickstarter that offers a 25.3", 3k monitor. It uses e-ink; the downsides are the refresh rate is obviously slower, it is black and white, and expensive. It is not out until Dec 2021, but other e-ink options are available now.

Have you tried this regedit to disable DWM?

Seagull

JTL

I've tested a few different windows operating systems and specific versions and never found the dithering Behaviour to be different in a way I could quantify, and I did try to quantify it. So in my opinion the differences between OSes is probably something static like focus/blur or aliasing. There is a video game, factorio, that gives me headache and eye pain near instantly, but I've never been able to quantify any dithering. It does have an awful lot of blur / antialiasing though.

Back to the matter at hand, I am having success desensitizing myself to migraine triggering devices. Gone from 5seconds of use of a smartphone to 60seconds now with only minor discomfort following.

JTL

Seagull I've tested a few different windows operating systems and specific versions and never found the dithering Behaviour to be different in a way I could quantify

I wasn't talking about quantifying any motion/noise/differences in a single video signal, moreso attempting to quantify the differences between setup "A" and setup "B".

ensete

Wow, didn't expect this level of response! I'll answer the questions all there

One suggestion I can make, I don't use the same settings in 10 as I do with 7, so try putting your card in YCbCr mode instead of RGB in 10.

I have an nVideo GT420 video card, it's identical hardware to the one in my Win7 machine. I also installed the identical video driver version, and if I look in the advanced settings it seems to be in RGB mode already, with 32 bi color depth.

One thing that seems to slightly help was under the custom resolution settings you could set the polarity to positive or negative for the horizontal and vertical display, setting both to negative seems to have helped a little. Adjusting colors, contrast, brightness, hue, digital vibrancy, and every other setting either made the issue worse or made no difference.

Maybe try the laptop noted in the other thread, however I understand that trying to convince a corporate IT dept you need a gaming laptop to do your job won't necessarily go down well.

I don't think they would go for that, it is a very locked down corporate environment and even then I have doubts it would do anything. I am nearly 100% sure that the issue is the Windows 10 desktop rendering engine and nothing to do with hardware.

What happens when you cover one eye and look at the screen? Is it the same? You have to look for a while, so you really can tell if it’s different. I have been in a similar situation like you so i know the felling, it sucks big time. Training with one eye covered was the solution for me. If it worked for me, it may work for you.

I haven't tried it can you provide more details?

Could you run Win10 with the generic video driver ie no accelleration?

I have tried no driver, an identical driver to my Win7 machine, and the latest driver. All acted identically in regards to my system

Can you try Linux?

IT is looking into this option for me right now, it may be something to try

Maybe an e-paper screen?

I've never tried one I could look into it

Can you offset some of your work onto your windows 7 laptop without them knowing?

Unfortunately security is very tight in my job, and everything is locked down on the machine. You can't connect it to your local network and share files, the USB ports are all disabled, file sharing websites are blocked, so it's not feasible in any way I can see to do my work on Win7 and then push it over to the Win10 machine.

If you do lose your job, have you considered freelancing from your win 7 laptop.

I don't really have any skills worthwhile in the freelancing department

Lastly maybe mowing lawns, ubering, buying a food truck.

I'm to old and broken down to get into physical labor at this point in my life.

Taking out a loan and purchasing an established business with guaranteed income?

I'm looking into it but honestly I don't want to be an entrepreneur and everyone I know who went into business and didn't have a passion for it all went bust.

Is an e-ink display an option?

I could use any monitor I want ,I might see about checking out an e-ink display

Have you tried this regedit to disable DWM?

I have not, I will be firing up my VM right after this post and giving it a try

I can (probably) explain their reasoning to you.

I understand their point of view, I have worked in technology my entire career. I just disagree with it. To me, being more concerned with the suffering of an employee than meeting an IT policy is basic human dignity.

What I'd probably do if i was in your position and with the hardware I have access to, is do some experimentation with lossless capture between a "known good" setup and a "bad" setup while keeping as many variables as the same and comparing differences in the signal between the two.

I've done that with hardware. Both my Win 7 machine have identical monitors, identical video cards, identical drivers, even Identical cables, and they both sit about 3 feet apart from each other in the same room. Win7 = perfect, Win10 = pain. So it has to be an OS level software issue between the two

Back to the matter at hand, I am having success desensitizing myself to migraine triggering devices. Gone from 5seconds of use of a smartphone to 60seconds now with only minor discomfort following.

Can you share your method?

Did you try old versions of W10? Because if you are fine with them you can use the W10 2015 LTSC, W10 2016 LTSC or W10 2018 LTSC. With these versions, you will receive only the security patch and nothing else so you should be fine

I have to use the version work will give me. At home or on any personal device I will never install Windows 10, ever, so it's not a concern there.

Last chance, if you live in the US you can try the neurolens: https://www.neurolenses.com/

I'll check it out

Thanks for all the support everyone, keep the dialogue going!

JTL

ensete I don't think they would go for that, it is a very locked down corporate environment and even then I have doubts it would do anything. I am nearly 100% sure that the issue is the Windows 10 desktop rendering engine and nothing to do with hardware.

Compared to running end of life software on older hardware, it's not a gaping security hole anymore, so they might be willing to entertain it.

My working theory at this point, is that this issue could potentially manifest differently with different hardware. But I don't know that for certain, which brings me to my next point.

ensete I've done that with hardware. Both my Win 7 machine have identical monitors, identical video cards, identical drivers, even Identical cables, and they both sit about 3 feet apart from each other in the same room. Win7 = perfect, Win10 = pain. So it has to be an OS level software issue between the two

That's not quite what I was referring to. It's easy enough to setup two computers with identical hardware and OS and use them, what I proposed involves using an external video capture device to capture the image between both systems, and use special software to compare differences in the video signal between both systems.

As long as this manifests with a GPU display output (DVI, DisplayPort, HDMI, et al) and not a laptop display (which is much more difficult to work with), the above applies.

As I said earlier.

[This] isn't rocket science and there HAS to be something different causing issues here between two systems displaying otherwise "identical" content.

ensete I understand their point of view, I have worked in technology my entire career. I just disagree with it. To me, being more concerned with the suffering of an employee than meeting an IT policy is basic human dignity.

Even if you agree with that reasoning (and I understand the rationale on both sides), even ignoring it and merely chugging along with old technology is just "buying time" in today's day and age of IT work.

Someone else here (Not putting them on the spot) with similar issues said that their company had some sort of enterprise support plan with Microsoft that overrides the normal maze of "consumer level" customer service. Don't know if they got anywhere with it though.

We need to have real R&D here, so we can point and say to engineers at "tech companies" and such: "We've determined that the issue in question relates to LCD inversion caused by new rendering patterns as part of the display pipeline as part of OS level rendering after this build" (Okay, that was just an example I made up). My point is, if there's going to be anything to get us "out of here" it's some empirical R&D.

diop

ensete I am nearly 100% sure that the issue is the Windows 10 desktop rendering engine and nothing to do with hardware.

A few months ago I set up a fresh W10 install on my known good machine for testing. Same laptop/ditherig running/same driver version. W10 definitely introduces a level of strain. It didn't seem as bad as say an Apple PC, but regardless it was uncomfortable after a short period.

C_c I haven't found a computer that I can use since my old one, a laptop with 13 years, just stop working for various reasons.

Have you considered buying the same model used from eBay etc?

C_c Windows 11 is coming do you guys think it will be better or worse?

I think it will be no different to the Vista/7 update. Same OS underneath, fresh coat of paint on top (or not 😆 )

JTL We need to have real R&D here, so we can point and say to engineers at "tech companies" and such: "We've determined that the issue in question relates to LCD inversion caused by new rendering patterns as part of the display pipeline as part of OS level rendering after this build" (Okay, that was just an example I made up). My point is, if there's going to be anything to get us "out of here" it's some empirical R&D.

One approach I've thought about for some time is PCoIP. I have had strain with remote services such as Shadow PC, which turned my good machine into really bad within minutes, couldn't quite believe it tbh.

Anyways, AFAIK when you are viewing a remote machine using PCoIP, you are seeing a pixel perfect representation of that machine, warts and all. Nothing is redrawn on the client side per se, it transmits the pixel data itself to the client. This also explains why dithering fixes from Amulet exist as it saves bandwidth when dithering is off (less pixel information being sent as there are less pixel changes).

It should be possible to roll your own VMWare server and then set up various host systems (known good device, upgraded known good device, bad device etc) and compare the PCoIP information, which I believe should allow you to identify if temporal dithering is being used, or at the very least to measure if there are differences in pixel activity between OS/Drivers.

A PCoIP log viewer has been created by one of the VMWare developers, this link is a bit old but it shows some basic usage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2OAdriDCms

One of the graphs is named 'PCoIP Encoder Stats - Changed Pixels' which sounds promising.

He has a website here (not-secure) http://mindfluxinc.net/ which should provide a link to the software or to contact the author.

This doesn't fix issues with the GPU outputs or Monitor pixel inversion however IMO would provide hard data that the software itself is now making changes to the pixels that it never used to do, which is detrimental for us.

C_c

I really identify with your situation and sometimes I wish there was a name for this, like a disease, so we could have help from the state and some investigation going. It's awful what is happening to us, really is.

I haven't found a computer that I can use since my old one, a laptop with 13 years, just stop working for various reasons. I've tried different settings, software and hardware to no good results even if some stuff is better than others. What I found most useful was the dasung paperlike e-ink monitor and I've been writing with it connected to a windows 10 laptop. when I need to Check something with color I turn on the laptop screen, see it for a couple minutes and then return to the dasung monitor. it's expensive but they are the only company in the world doing it…

I also tried cover one eye, in the first hour seemed to help but then I go eye strain and headaches all the same.

I found that also helps me to have the monitor really far away or connected to an old crt TV which is not good for writing but only for video calls or watching duff.

Windows 11 is coming do you guys think it will be better or worse?

at some point someone who works at these companies will have the same problem has us, no? and point to their attention that something is not OK. I find people always complaining of eye strain and headaches much more in the last couple of years…

tech should become better not worse, I really don't get it.

Also I've been using a typewriter just to do drafts of texts and then do the final edit on the computer and I must tell you what a relief… it's like not having anything distracting you from you thought process. you write and then it appears on paper, it's there. I know it's not a viable option for office work now a days but at least for drafts and sketchs it works well, and then you can scan it and Send it also ahah. (new dorm of email?, just kidding).

hope you find a solution, all the best

C_c

well I forgot to mention that the only laptop that I had use with windows 10 that didn't cause strain was this tablet / laptop

Asus transformer book from 2015 but maybe because it was so slow and weak that is not capable of dithering? I don't know

https://www.asus.com/pt/Commercial-Laptops/asus_transformer_book_t100ta

zlhr

@ensete

If you think that disabling DWM theme and using classic mode will help you, I maybe have a possible solution for you.

Someone figured out how to make a "true" classic theme working and usable in windows 10 and made a program to simplify things:

https://winclassic.boards.net/thread/456/reversibly-enable-disable-classic-simple

Keep in mind that in requires .NET 5 redist and might or might not completely disable DWM

ensete

zlhr If you think that disabling DWM theme and using classic mode will help you, I maybe have a possible solution for you.

Someone figured out how to make a "true" classic theme working and usable in windows 10 and made a program to simplify things:

https://winclassic.boards.net/thread/456/reversibly-enable-disable-classic-simple

Keep in mind that in requires .NET 5 redist and might or might not completely disable DWM

I'm a long time member of that board but with a different username 🙂

There are 2 methods to get "classic mode" on Win 10, one is winlogin based which doesn't help as it retains DWM, the other is to eliminates DWM but this results in an unstable system

I am trying the Dasung 13.3 inch einkmonitor right now, it's only been an hour or so but it seems decent. It is annoying to use being so small and grayscale, they have a 23 inch version releasing this year though. I'm going to give it a week. I am also going to try a new BenQ monitor any specific model recommendations?