Please write to Apple accessibility

MAS-76

Just wrote to Apple accessibility

K-Moss

Those of you having trouble with Apple's OLED phone displays, have you tried Motorola's p-OLED displays with flicker-free turned on? From what I've read, the Moto Edge displays with flicker-free enabled and refresh set to 120Hz or 60Hz seem comfortable for over 50% of normally screen-sensitive individuals.

cooldudz

ensete Can you expand on this? I know this was written months ago but I have a habit of lurking posts/comments of people who I find brilliant and want to learn more. Pretty mind blown no one enaged with you further on this.

What non-digital things trigger you?

What changes did you make to the several bad screens that resolved your issues?

Why do you view flicker and dithering as red herrings? What do you think are the main contributors to our condition?

K-Moss

Will Apple, Google, and Samsung do the responsible thing and follow the science, or will they continue the current path of deprioritizing long-term human health over less important metrics?

https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/late-2024-led-flicker-research-smartphones

AshX

K-Moss

Great article by Nick. Thanks for sharing. I’m of the mind regulatory bodies may have to get involved at this juncture.

K-Moss

AshX Nick says:

I was not sensitive to PWM dimming until after phones started getting above 1400 nits. Have to increase the rate as brightness increases, especially with 99% modulation.

Surely the phone manufacturers know and understand what he is saying there. They have those OLED screens configured like max brightness is at 2006 levels. Is this merely negligence or is there a hidden hand guiding these corps? The average person has no clue about PWM and the harms of popular OLED phone screens.

AshX

K-Moss

I don’t think there’s anything conspiratorial. It’s merely about benchmarks and marketing. Companies want to be able to advertise that a screen is 50% brighter and 35% richer colors and 25% longer battery life than the previous model, in an effort to get you to upgrade. Shareholders and management doesn’t care how it’s achieved so long as the benchmarks are met as cheaply as possible. It’s just that this cannot be achieved without serious trade-offs in the form of flicker and quality control failures.

Just look at how the average consumer or tech reviewer treats any new device upon release. If it’s not a marked improvement in multiple facets from the previous generation, it is ridiculed and dismissed as a waste of money. So it’s not like the companies are the only driver of this behavior: consumers demand significant improvements each update cycle to justify a purchase. We haven’t seen massive hardware advancements in many years and rather than focus on improving software, companies keep trying to make changes to devices for the sake of changes even if no real benefit is seen.

K-Moss

AshX That doesn't explain why Google, Apple, Samsung don't jack up the PWM frequency to Chinese levels, such as over 3500 Hz.

AshX

K-Moss

I would assume there is either a cost savings to power PWM relating to the hardware configuration necessary or it is not as efficient. This is something we would need to find more research for. It’s interesting that the MiniLED MacBook Pros are 14.9kHz PWM and the OLED iPad I believe is 240Hz PWM. I wonder why the MBP can go that high but the iPad cannot.

JTL

AshX I would assume being miniLED vs OLED would have some differences. A bit "apples and oranges" there, to say the least.

AshX

JTL

For sure. I’d be curious why MiniLED supports higher PWM frequencies yet most of the laptop/mobile OLED devices I’ve seen are in the hundreds of Hz.

JTL

AshX For sure. I’d be curious why MiniLED supports higher PWM frequencies yet most of the laptop/mobile OLED devices I’ve seen are in the hundreds of Hz.

I don't know the exact physics involved but as I understand it. OLED are an electroluminescent layer across a organic compound to create pixels and I think miniLED are just an array of many conventional LEDs to illuminate an LCD. A bit "apple's and oranges" comparing the two technologies.

ensete

Donux Well this is not entirely true.

Yes it is. Apple not being a medical professional is a fact. If you think they have violated their duty of care, hire a lawyer and sue them. They don't care about people complaining on forums

You are under no obligation to use an Apple product.You are under no obligation to have a smartphone. I know multiple people who purposefully use LCD screen flip phones by choice and get along just fine. You could to.

These companies are so big that have totally different standard and duty of care towards society.

Incorrect

Donux Also, Apple is one of those companies that prides itself on serving all people including minorities

You can't be that naive.

Donux No. Apple is more about having one highway road to reach your destination town which unfortunately has some bad cracks in it, and all the other roads are bumpy, without tarmac, full of potholes and sharp nails.

No, Apple is a manufacture of a luxury product that no one needs and people can (and do) get along perfectly fine without ever interacting with them

Look, I understand your frustration at having this condition. I promise you, I get it. But the first step at living a better life with this is to accept you have it, and realize that the world is not going to change to cater to your condition. It just isn't. So you can get angry, frustrated, and bang your head against the wall and accomplish nothing but a headache for your troubles, or you can accept the reality you live in, make the changes YOU have control over to minimize your symptoms, and go through life the best you can.

Apple doesn't care about you. They don;t care about us. they are no going to launch some massive campaign to get to the root cause of a condition that impacts .0001% of the people out there. They don't care and they never will. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can start focusing on the things you CAN change that will improve your life and your condition.

Try talking to a counselor or therapist about this. Acceptance is the first step towards accepting a disability and finding ways to improve your situaiton

Best of luck

simplex

ensete make the changes YOU have control over to minimize your symptoms, and go through life the best you can

great words, the only we can do

AshX

ensete

My friend, this is one of the most condescending posts I’ve read on this forum. Donux is not incorrect in many of his points. You must also believe that the drug companies should not be held accountable for the safety of their products or the oil and gas companies that pollute the environment.

Like all new technologies, there will be a period where nothing is regulated. And if you truly believe that this is still only affecting a very small group of people, you clearly aren’t spending much time on the other mainstream forums like Reddit. There’s been a massive increase in users complaining about eyestrain and issues with screens in the last 5 years.

I talk to a lot of people since developing issues after a COVID infection. They may not have the same debilitating neurological reactions as I do and as many others here do, but they are experiencing symptoms: dry eyes, blurry vision, headaches, fatigue, trouble sleeping, etc. They just don’t understand why it’s happening because the public has no knowledge of flicker, PWM, dithering, polarization, and so on. All anyone knows about is blue light glasses which as a top neuro ophthalmologist told me, are completely useless.

How many things that we thought were harmless in the past 75-100 years ended up being problematic or outright damaging to our health? A ton. And how many lawsuits have been filed against companies that knew their products were damaging health, but it was more profitable to continue selling them rather than pulling them off shelves or changing them. I think you know the answer.

Yes, we have a responsibility to take care of our health and avoid damaging products. What the heck do you think everyone on this forum is doing? You can protect yourself while simultaneously pushing these companies to solve the problem. The two things are not mutually exclusive. And it’s becoming impractical to use older devices. A flip phone in 2025? Are you 80 years old? Banking apps won’t even work on older versions of iOS anymore! You seriously think that technology isn’t a requirement for modern life? 99% of us would gladly use our devices from 10 years ago if they still worked. Hell, many of us still do even if they can barely browse the web.

I’m sure you mean well but your comment is very counterproductive to what we are trying to accomplish here. And yes, many users here want to avoid a lawsuit. But I can tell you those days are almost up because there are more people than you think in high places who are affected by these issues and are interested in taking action if Apple and other companies will not willing do it. But it will be no thanks to people like you.

cooldudz

ensete following up on my last comment

What non-digital things trigger you?

What changes did you make to the several bad screens that resolved your issues?

Why do you view flicker and dithering as red herrings? What do you think are the main contributors to our condition?

ensete

cooldudz What non-digital things trigger you?

CCFL and LED lighting in a particular color range. LED headlights on cars. Some paint colors. Sinus intrusion/scoping. Most car windshields.

What changes did you make to the several bad screens that resolved your issues?

Nothing. I stopped using them. My issues are not "resolved" I have stumbled across a few things that help (most noticeably patching and using KVM splitters) but I have accepted I have a disability and in my life I will need to do what I can to avoid the things that trigger that disability.

Why do you view flicker and dithering as red herrings? What do you think are the main contributors to our condition?

I have used PWN and flicker free monitors and they have not made the slightest bit of difference to my symptoms. I a have tried every PWM and Flicker adjustment software, an they do nothing. So FOR ME, they are a red herring. They may be a trigger for others, but I think a lot of people latch on to them as causes just because it "feels" like they are the cause, but it's actually not. But that's just my hunch.

My friend, this is one of the most condescending posts I’ve read on this forum

It's not condescending, it's the truth. Living in some delusional Erin Brockovich fantasy is not going to help you live a better life. You are not going to bring Apple to their knees. They don't care and never will. No trillion dollar corporation is going to bow to the demands of a few dozen people on an internet forum. That's just juvenile wish casting. You can argue with them all you want and they best you will ever get is a refund (which I would agree they should provide)

Acceptance is the first stage of dealing with the fact you have a disability. Trust me, I used to be just like you, I was running around the internet, pulling my hair out, trying everything under the son, emailing apple and Google and Microsoft and nVidia and AMD and Intel and IBM and anyone else I could find an email address for, I was emailing congresspeople and senators, I was emailing non profits, I even got suckered into various charlatan and snake oil "treatments" that said they could cure me, and above all I was angry, angry at things changing and wishing they would just go back to the way they were. I lived like that for years before I finally found a therapist who sat me down and got through to me that I have a disability, the world is not going to fix it for me, I need to accept that, and instead of wasting my time, energy, and money in the delusional belief I can change the world to accommodate me, I focus on the things I control and work on creating the most symptom free life I can.

All healing lies on the other side of acceptance. That's the first path to peace. Raging against a careless world only hurts you more than you are already hurting. I know how you feel, cause I felt that way, I know your pain, cause I had it to, I read you manifesto's and they are exactly what I was writing 20 years ago. I am holding out a little bit of hope that maybe my words will get through to you and I can help someone move along the path of acceptance a little faster than I did.

MAS-76

I wrote Apple accessibility again and finally got a reply:

"Thank you for taking the time to follow up. We appreciate the additional information, and will ensure that your comments reach the appropriate teams for review."

So nothing specific, but at least they responded! I had written several times. Let's hope.

AshX

JTL

True. I suppose I was curious because OLED can go into higher PWM frequencies as is proven by other OLED smartphones and televisions. I haven’t seen them go into the MiniLED range at apprx. 15KHz, but certainly the 1-6kHz range. Perhaps this is just a limitation as OLED smartphones tend to hover around the same 240-480Hz range.

I suppose to a degree with OLED, frequency isn’t as relevant as modulation depth. The MiniLED MacBooks have a high enough PWM frequency, but the modulation depth is quite high and the VRR ProMotion refresh rate adds a lot of chaos to the backlight signal.

I think OLED has a lot of potential for those of us with general photosensitivity - I certainly find OLEDs to be a lot easier on the eyes from a light output and contrast perspective if you aren’t running them at super high brightness. But unfortunately fears over burn-in and the fact that they’re mostly used on mobile devices seems to be giving the technology a bad name (rightfully so). It doesn’t seem like the industry has an interest in fixing this, instead looking to innovate on the next technology.

autobot

AshX So the question is: how is it possible to convince an industry, or at least a significant enough business/es, to target a problem ?

And who are the businesses that could meaningfully help, that would be easier to convince ? What types of businesses we need on our side ?

AshX

ensete All healing lies on the other side of acceptance. That's the first path to peace. Raging against a careless world only hurts you more than you are already hurting. I know how you feel, cause I felt that way, I know your pain, cause I had it to, I read you manifesto's and they are exactly what I was writing 20 years ago. I am holding out a little bit of hope that maybe my words will get through to you and I can help someone move along the path of acceptance a little faster than I did

I’m sorry your experience has been difficult. But to be honest, I think there’s quite a bit of projection based on your own experience, and quite a few assumptions.

First of all, I’m under no illusions that Apple will change anything. If you’ve read any of my other posts, you’ll know that I’m a strong advocate for creating 3rd party plugins and doing rigorous testing to identify various triggers in a methodical, scientific manner. If anything improves from internal changes made by Apple, it will likely be because of advances in screen technology that just so happens to eliminate many of the triggers present with current devices.

The problem with posts like yours is you assume just because there are commonalities with your experience, that everyone else must have the same history and be on the same path as you. You don’t know anything about my personal health in my younger years, other than COVID was a trigger for screen sensitivities. Believe me, if you knew anything about my struggles as a teenager with chronic illness you wouldn’t be lecturing me about acceptance. You have no idea what I have survived and how I have persevered for decades. I don’t want to draw comparisons, but if you think this is the worst of my symptoms, you have no idea.

I’m not writing a “manifesto” - I’m trying to offer a positive, proactive perspective in a sea of users who frankly can be incredibly pessimistic and nihilistic. The online screen sensitivity communities sometimes feel like doomposting central. Advocating for and pushing Apple and other companies to make changes while simultaneously finding accommodations on a community or individual level are not mutually exclusive. Bro, I’ve made 8 albums and I play over 15 instruments - I do this stuff all on my own from the writing, production, engineering, and mixing all the way to the album art and designs. I’m not the type of dude to just wait for other people to solve his problems. I’d gladly use a computer from 2012 I genuinely don’t give a crap. But I don’t agree that the solution is to take your toys and go home and reach some BS place of acceptance. It’s not realistic.

Most people find a workable setup and then are on their way. But guess what? They eventually come back once those devices break or a software update makes them unusable. This is why we need more research and more testing. This problem is not going away and what works today may not work tomorrow. Which is why it’s important to continue advocating and spreading awareness along with pushing for separate 3rd party solutions.

Yes, people can accept they have a disability or an autoimmune disease. It doesn’t mean they stop pushing for treatments, accommodations, and improvements. Im sorry but your arguments are incredibly flawed and I think it is you who needs to step outside your own perspective and experience, and listen to the experiences of others, rather than being so dismissive and condescending thinking you have seen the truth of the matter when the reality is nothing is black and white, especially as it relates to this topic.

ensete

AshX I'm not going to argue with you. You can only lead a horse to water, and all that.

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