Hi everyone, and welcome - this is my first thread.

I'm posting this rather to let you know of potential eyestrain problems with Precision 7760 and Legion 5 - I've lost any hope to solve the problem with these two. But in case you have any ideas… I'd appreciate it very much :-)

So I recently bought two laptops:

Dell Precision 7760 i7-11850h, Nvidia RTXA4000, BOE NV173FHM-N4F 60Hz PWM display (DCI-P3, 500 nits); prod. Oct 2021, bought in Nov 2021

Lenovo Legion 5 15IMH05H, i7-10750h, Nvidia RTX2060, AUO B156HAN09.2 144Hz non-PWM display (sRGB, 300 nits); prod. probably Apr 2021, bought July 2021

Note 1: apparently I'm not sensitive to PWM (have a couple TVs with it around and no problems with them).

Note 2: both Precision and Legion are my first laptops with Nvidia since very long (like 10 yrs), although I used some others briefly in the meantime (with Nvidia Pascal).

Both laptops produce exactly the same eyestrain. Initially I was unable to focus on the text, light sensitivity came in afterwards, then eyeballs started hurting (different parts of muscles over past several months, initially the sides, now the top). At this point I am no longer able to look at any of them for more than a few minutes, a month ago I could still do it for 2-3hrs.

On the software side I tried perhaps everything I could: various Ubuntu versions (20.04, 21.10), Kubuntu 21.10, Win 10, various Nividia driver versions, switching between Intel and Nvidia. The problem persists even if I go to BIOS.

However, it's absent (in both cases) when I plug in an external monitor through HDMI.

Regarding Legion, someone else had exactly the same problem (identical symptoms): https://www.reddit.com/r/LenovoLegion/comments/ozzl4t/lenovo_legion_5_causes_eyestrain/

Beware :-)

EDIT: I forgot to mention that turning dithering off in the Nvidia panel gave me an instant relief on both laptops, but there is sth more going on, as the eyestrain is still with me when I'm looking at the panels (and a few hours after I stop). This setting does not seem to change anything on external monitors, i.e. dithering seems to be fine then. What's more, I have a 6-bit FRC panel (AUO B140HAN03.3) on Dell Latitude 7480 - been using it for the last four years or so without any problems.

    pjw_ Hi! Have you ever faced something similar on smartphones?

    • pjw_ replied to this.

        Welcome to the forum @pjw_ .

        Because your problem persists in the BIOS and goes away with external monitor, it is very likely the screen/panel itself that is the problem. What external monitors are you using?

        For research it'd be useful if you determined the actual panel in the laptop. Neither Dell nor Lenovo make panels AFAIK. Even with the same laptop model, multiple panels could be installed (e.g. you can buy several of the same laptop model, and get a different panel each time).

        To find the panel, I use the free HWInfo tool, you can see a screenshot below (feel free to post yours):

        In my case (above), the laptop is HP EliteBook, but the panel is from Chi Mei, with panel: CMN14FF

          ryans Dell nor Lenovo make panels AFAIK

          At most, they could possibly get some manufactured with design changes. but that's another topic.

            Mrak0020 Nope, I have never experienced anything like that with any other display whatsoever.

            For the record, I used to own a couple of old Nokias, then Samsung Galaxy S and S II, Samsung Galaxy Note 4, and now I'm using Samsung Galaxy Note 10 Lite (has PWM in the low-brightness regime, but unproblematic for me).

            Frankly speaking, I'm totally confused by what's happening. I can't even figure out if it's the display, the GPU, or some combination of hardware elements. Dell actually replaced the display for me once (for the same model, they claim it's the only one which fits, but I'm suspicious of that), but it didn't help in any way. What strikes me most is that I have exactly the same problem with two very different machines (and only with them; maybe I should try a few more recent models? :-) ). My working explanation is that either some new technology has been introduced in displays, or both setups are faulty, with an analog of coil-whine, but hitting eyes not ears.

            Let me add that I consider my eyes normal.

            ryans The BOE display in Precision 7760 I mentioned above is exactly the one that has been inserted (I took a photo during the on-site "repair"). With Lenovo I'm 99% sure it's the one; I'll do my best to find an app like HWinfo for Ubuntu, which is my working environment at the moment, and let you know (or I'll reinstall Win 10, but I need some time for it, since I'm having hard time at work :-) ).

            EDIT: In case you're wondering where I took the Lenovo display model from - I know I have AUO there (Nvidia panel says so), and the only AUO compatible with my machine (checked by serial number) is B156HAN09.2

                  pjw_ Let me add that I consider my eyes normal.

                  Check out my previous post here. Binocular vision dysfunction / heterophoria are eye issues that most eye doctors won't test for and is completely unrelated to 20/20 vision.

                  pjw_ Regarding Legion, someone else had exactly the same problem (identical symptoms): https://www.reddit.com/r/LenovoLegion/comments/ozzl4t/lenovo_legion_5_causes_eyestrain/

                  Very interesting that someone on that Reddit thread has a hidden squint (a kind of eye issue) and gets relief by covering his/her right eye which @mike has been doing to train.

                      pjw_ Ah, now I see the panels, thanks. What external monitor are you using?

                      • pjw_ replied to this.

                          ryans Samsung C32HG70QQU (the main one) and ASUS MX279H (occasionally). Plus a few more or less random ones at work…

                              pjw_ Hmm, that is interesting.
                              Historically, Ledstrain was created as a community that tried to figure out what was happening with older tech and software. Spoiler: mostly dithering and PWM. So most of the threads and complaints here describe eyestrain, headache but there are way fewer complaints about light sensitivity.
                              On the other hand, on a huge Russian tech forum, there is a way newer thread where people complain mostly about modern smartphones, and light sensitivity is a complaint that often accompanies that struggle. I am one of those people. While both forums have all kinds of problems discussed, most of the participants have different underlying problems with tech. There is also another huge Russian-speaking forum about monitors (thread about eyes started in 2002 and has a few thousand pages), where light sensitivity sometimes arises. It seems that in the English-speaking internet, this complaint is instead scattered among review pages of different monitors.
                              Now back to smartphones. There are a number of complaints that they do create eyestrain together with red eyes and light sensitivity (on completely healthy eyes). It seems that monitors are less problematic in that regard. Smartphones need high brightness, good readability under direct sunlight, etc. You can use Note 10 lite, and that is definitely one of the 'bad' smartphones, it gave me a lot of trouble. So if by chance you faced something that is similar to those complaints, it should bother you only on a very-very limited amount of screens.
                              Complaints look like this: https://libredd.it/r/Monitors/comments/pmmt2l/trying_to_reduce_eye_strain_and_headaches_from/

                              At this moment of time, no one can tell if light sensitivity could be also triggered by FRC dithering/other dithering/anything else, I just see that there are few complaints about light sensitivity in that regard.

                              I collected a list of every known problem so far, you can go through it and check if anything helps. The smartphone problem is named Problem X there.
                              Part 1 https://ledstrain.org/d/1404-eyestrain-triggers/11
                              Part 2 https://ledstrain.org/d/1404-eyestrain-triggers/12

                                  pjw_ While I am not sure which problems/triggers can lead to light sensitivity (and more importantly, how) I am basically hunting all light sensitivity complaints in order to find a clue 🙂

                                  • pjw_ replied to this.

                                      Mrak0020 It does seem that there are a large number of previously unharmed people joining the forum.

                                      This year I experienced big problems with three laptops (HP Omen 15-ek1018ca, Lenovo Legion 5i 81Y6003YUS, and Lenovo Ideapad 3i 82H801GGUS ) and one monitor (MSI Optix MAG274QRF-QD). Very difficult to look at, with less time to pain (almost immediate), and more intense symptoms than previously.

                                      @pjw_ I had similar issues with a Lenovo Legion 5, but with a BOE panel. I found it significantly worse on Nvidia dedicated mode, but Intel mode was also unusable. I am very sensitive to OS-related strain but good-for-me versions of Windows did not help. The HP Omen had a similar AUO panel to your Lenovo Legion 5, and was also unusable.

                                          Mrak0020 Thx for the links. Pls give me a moment to browse through them - my eyes are already exhausted today :-)

                                          As for light sensitivity and Note 10 Lite - indeed, there is clearly a cutoff when brightness is too much for me. But the feeling does not resemble in any way what I feel on Precision and Legion (with Note it's like the Sun was shining too much, with laptops - the primary effect is that muscles around my eyes start cramping). Moreover, it does not matter if I set brightness on them to 25%, 50%, 75%… My eyes start hurting in each case (although they hurt more with higher brightness, but I guess it's a consequence of them being tired in general after a few months of "experiments").

                                              degen Yep. I also noted that I see similar complaints here lately. While I was collecting info for Wiki and carefully read half of Ledstrain threads since the beginning, I noted the difference.
                                              The newer Russian-speaking smartphone thread I mentioned has different kinds of people, but most also were previously unaffected, can use a wide range of tech. There are also notably fewer complaints about headaches and almost no about brain fog.
                                              Manufacturers are doing their best, it seems.

                                              • pjw_ replied to this.

                                                  degen on the second thought, not similar symptoms, but an increase in the variety of symptoms and in the amount of previously unharmed people. Anyway, it is very hard to make any assumptions based on Ledstrain because 1) assumptions are very subjective without statistical data collection, and more importantly, 2) the number and type of people who join the forum heavily depends on who googles their problems and where google puts links to Ledstrain.

                                                    pjw_ Your description neatly matches Problem X... but on the other hand, I still have no clue if something else can cause these same symptoms 🙁

                                                    @degen pjw_
                                                    Well well well. Checked what can I find in Russian about Lenovo Legion 5.
                                                    Very first search result forums.lenovo.com. Google translated:

                                                    1. "Lenovo Legion 5 laptop, I can’t sit behind it, my eyes hurt very much, although there is an IPS matrix ... I bought a lenovo ideapad gaming 3 laptop in February of this year, and my eyes also hurt from it, only many times stronger, just unbearable (it’s much easier with this legion, albeit unpleasant). I sold it, thinking that it was some kind of individual reaction to the matrix. ... I have never had such a reaction to the screen before - I have an old monitor with a TN matrix, a phone with an IPS matrix and an iPad with an IPS matrix, and there was no such reaction to them."
                                                    2. "Same problem.
                                                      Notebook legion 7 16ACHg6, 82N6000JRK
                                                      After a short time behind the screen of the laptop, pain in the eyes begins, strong tension.
                                                      In the evening, my head starts to hurt. People around noticed that an unhealthy gleam appears in the eyes.
                                                      I work in the IT field, there are dozens of monitors in front of my eyes, there has never been such a reaction.
                                                      The problem is exacerbated when you work with a large amount of text on a white background. It seems that it is difficult for the eyes to focus on the text".
                                                    3. The same crap. Eyes hurt (cut) after holding a laptop for more than half an hour. Notebook Lenovo ideapad 5 14are. All possible manipulations were carried out, nothing helps (there is no PWM. Full HD screen (1920x1080), IPS.

                                                    Search result number two, 4pda forum

                                                    1. "The other day I ordered a laptop Legion 5 15IMH05H - Type 81Y6 on the official Lenovo website. It has an IPS screen at 500 nits and 240 Hz (model B156HAN10.2).
                                                      I have been using it for a couple of days now, and my eyes are very tired from the screen. Even at low brightness, it presses on the eyes and temples, very uncomfortable sensations.
                                                      The display seems to pass the pencil test, and support claims that this model does not have PWM"
                                                    2. "What is your matrix?
                                                      I have BOEhydis NV156FHM-NX1 120Hz
                                                      Nevertheless, there is also a slight discomfort, I used macbooks before there were no problems"
                                                    3. interesting contradictory statement: "There was a similar problem only on Acer Nitro 5, my eyes hurt, there was pain in my eyes and my eyes could not focus on the text. I also tried different settings, reinstalled the drivers, but nothing helped. I suffered for a week, eventually changed it to Lenovo Legion 5 and the problem went away."

                                                    Search result number three, Ukrainian marketplace comments, Lenovo Legion 5 15IMH05. It seems this one has small sRGB match, 45%
                                                    "I highly do not recommend buying because of the screen, it's terrible. Firstly, this is not an IPS, but a WVA matrix, that is, TN with improved viewing angles, and secondly, the screen is dull, the colors are not natural, no calibration helps. On both laptops on the 2nd day black dead dead pixels appeared. Plus, it really hurts my eyes."

                                                          Mrak0020 Some of the new symptoms, especially with the Lenovo's, included one eye turning red, drooping, and spasming in short order -- a visible display that others noticed. I wonder if others affected by Problem X experience similar symptoms.

                                                              OK, now I got curious - where are those same complaints on Lenovo but in English?

                                                              degen red eyes, very often. Muscle spasm, not sure, but it seems I had them. I am not sure how to translate 'drooping'.

                                                                  Dell Precision 7760 seems to be absent on the market, almost no search results.
                                                                  The same with HP Omen 15-ek1018ca. Googled random HP Omen, goth this about HP OMEN 17-w226ur 3RM81EA
                                                                  "After 2 weeks, my eyes began to get terribly tired and hurt when there was not even a hint of discomfort on a stationary computer ... I don’t know what to do anymore."
                                                                  This is about HP OMEN 15-dc0019ur:
                                                                  "Terrible screen, eyes hurt after an hour of work, poor color reproduction (which is why I use it in deuteranopia mode).
                                                                  I bought a laptop in order to constantly carry it with me and so that I could play Overwatch, BF4, etc.
                                                                  I use it with a monitor, because the display is terrible. I tried to set it up through the Intel application, but the red constantly resembles acid red - it is either orange or acid raspberry. You can use color blind modes in games, then you can finally distinguish colors."
                                                                  I am not familiar with different laptop models, if there's some more specific model similar to 15-ek1018ca that is present on the Ukrainian or Russian market, I can check.
                                                                  There are very few reviews about lenovo ideapad 3i.

                                                                  Lenovo Legion 5 is an absolute winner (as there is no info on other contestants).
                                                                  One more complaint:
                                                                  "Hello everyone, I bought a Lenovo Legion 5 15ACH6H, the first month everything was ok, I worked / played quietly for many hours in a row, recently (I noticed this after installing cyberpunk, by the way) my eyes started to hurt from the screen, both in different games and at work , while I already tried a bunch of settings in the Nvidia control panel, it didn’t help"
                                                                  And the final one:
                                                                  "The screen is weird, sometimes it feels like it hurts the eyes"

                                                                  • pjw_ replied to this.
                                                                    dev