glvn
It's GTX 1070 asus strix driver 382.05 (default from CD), Windows 7 without updates from around 4 years nothing has changed not even a cable. BUT the problem with outpout started after TV updates I think I have write about it.

Thanks for the reply but I dont think focusing on PC is a good trace... because im using it on my monitor and it dont give me any symphoms. As I have write above but I will repeat: I have also connected PS4 to this TV and other panasonic 4k TV and had strong sympthoms while on my older TV there were none... Also I was connecting same PS4 to three different monitors - no problems.

This TV now which I have XE9005 SONY is not ideal too... while I said I have nosymphoms IF ITS IN LIMITED RGB and I can play most games - yes thats correct but I have mostly played older games on it. For e.g. one day I have tried Assetto corsa and project cars and coudlnt stand more then 20-30mins and in previous years I have played assetto for 1,5 year on my monitor without single issue/pain. The headache from playing assetto laster even 3 days... after just 1 hour of it on this TV... and most other games - fine (on PC because as I said on PS4 any game gave me headache/eye strain). I remember once I have dropped contrast on this TV from 90 to 50 and assetto game looked quite fine and I was able to play for 1,5 no symphoms but other content on contrast 50 looked VERY DARK (barely could see stuff).
I will add that my main monitor EIZO FS2434 does use FRC so not quite fit to temporal dithering?

My guess is something not quite working from the 4k era TVs for me... someone here on forum said screens with contrast ratio 1000:1 or below works for him... and I have checked that my old TV was 1000:1 and all monitors were too 1000:1 (IPS panels mostly) and that contrast lowering working on assetto corsa maybe thats a some trace...
One thing in common is all new 4k TVs have PFS luminodiode while all those monitors have old white W-LED maybe it is somehow related or the contrast is to high for me on TVs for gaming but fine for movies and TV? dont know..

  • glvn replied to this.

      Luki99 It's GTX 1070 asus strix driver 382.05 (default from CD), Windows 7 without updates from around 4 years nothing has changed not even a cable.

      My main version is TEMPORAL DITHERING PC video output (or other devices). But gf1070 is noted by most users here as susceptible to dithering issue. In what way do you connect FS2434 to a PC? (DP, DWI).
      Perhaps dithering is enabled/disabled implicitly, depending on other video output settings (video output port type, OS and driver version, output range, EDID of the connected device, but these are my assumptions)

      Luki99 BUT the problem with outpout started after TV updates

      It is very strange that this did not affect the appearance of the problem when playing with the built-in player. Has the Android version changed?

      Luki99 Also I was connecting same PS4 to three different monitors - no problems.

      in all cases, was the HDMI connection type and full range used?

      Luki99 I will add that my main monitor EIZO FS2434 does use FRC so not quite fit to temporal dithering?

      FRС is "dithering" which is done by the monitor matrix itself, temporal dithering is done independently on the GPU PC (or other connected device) if I figured it out correctly
      Our headaches and eye strain problems are most likely to have similar symptoms, but many different causes 🙁

      your best combination for XE9005 now: win7+1070(HDMI limited output range) ?

                glvn
                FS2434 I have it connected to this PC via DVI I had it connected also thru HDMI in both versions there were no issues at all IN FACT ANYTHING that I have connected to this monitor never gave me any symphoms.

                "It is very strange that this did not affect the appearance of the problem when playing with the built-in player. Has the Android version changed?"
                Yes. The newest is Oreo I think and oldest was Android 6 if I remember correctly.

                " Also I was connecting same PS4 to three different monitors - no problems.
                in all cases, was the HDMI connection type and full range used?"
                With PS4 back then I had it set to auto same as TV and in that setup it was working in FULL RGB range. I think I have tried it with this tv with limited too but cant remember effects so it had to be bad (if it would work I would remember). And when I connected to monitors I didnt change anything just plugged HDMI to a monitor and played but then it should work in FULL also propably if signal was read good between ps4 auto - monitor.

                "your best combination for XE9005 now: win7+1070(HDMI limited output range) ?"
                As for this PC with TV yes but as I said not all games. Also the PS3 as blu ray player works great (limited too).

                I have tried couple of TVs but discovered limited range just now and on all of those TVs I had full rgb... for example I had Panas OLED and watching it was fine... movie fine... just plugged PC set up full and headaches at back/top of my head pop in just in 10-15mins, similar with other TVs whichj I have returned in past 2 months. I couldnt trty PS4 now cause I sold it back then.
                I have also tried 43 monitor and that worked well I have tested 1,5hour in assetto corsa and I have felt just like on my FS2434. Too bad they don't produce 50-55 inch monitors 🙂

                • glvn replied to this.

                    Luki99 I have also tried 43 monitor and that worked well I have tested 1,5hour in assetto corsa and I have felt just like on my FS2434

                    DP or HDMI? full or limited ?

                        glvn DP with full rgb.

                        I'm thinking there can be no other solution then to buy a 43 monitor and lift it up (it was too low for me and gave me neck pains) and live with smaller screen or play older games as I do now on Xe9005. I like movies also and this sony is very good for it that's why its also tought for me going smaller.

                        I have also found a strange Acer monitor... Acer EB490QK and EB550K. Almost no reviews tho I have found just one translated from Russian language, it's flicker free, W-LED but has two downsides... 1. GLOSSY 2. quite a lot of bad customers opinions on it with a defect/malfuntion within 0-8months of use.

                        Maybe also some idea would be to buy PS4 if I find a place with easy return for a console and TRY to set it up manually for LIMITED and see if that works on XE9005.

                          Luki99 I have also recently tried dell u4320q as replacement for my TV and there was no symphtoms at all... I could play anygame and didnt had any single symphom. Unfortunately it was a little to low and I had neck pains

                          I misunderstood "little to low" as a too small pixel 43" 4k 🙁

                          I don't understand how 4k 55 TV is fundamentally different from 4k 55 monitor:

                          1. monitor supports 4: 4: 4 (and 4:4:4 60Hz)
                          2. the monitor does not "improve" the image
                            the limited range does not affect any of this if I understand correctly

                          does the XE9005 have a "PC mode"? "improvements" should be disabled in this mode
                          does the XE9005 support 4:4:4 ?

                              glvn The 43 monitor was too low I mean the height🙂

                              XE9005 doesn't have PC Mode it does have "game" and "graphics" mode as all SONY TVs and it supports 4:4:4 but I said above it gives me headaches only limited works but still not for all games while monitor works for all. Nintendo switch has always worker for me even on that bad 4k Panasonic using PWM it was fine playing on it but again Switch is defaulted in LIMITED also... just a point.

                              I don't know what are the differences also that's why I asked this question 🙂 Maybe the key is that monitor does not improve the picture and on TV even that all is turned off by me still has some "processing" ?

                              Other thing I can think of is that there are those HDMI options on TVs like mode 1 / 2 EOTF, in mode 1 you cant get 4k/60fps and on "mode 2" which is default for most TVs u can get 4k/60fps and also wider color gamut. I wrote mode1/2 but its called different in different TVs.

                              Other differences are for sure:
                              Monitor 43 had 1000:1 contrast ratio while TV has way above 5000:1
                              50 inch is bigger then 43
                              Obviously no DVI on TVs
                              Most monitors I have tried are trully flicker free while TVs - only this sony is under some conditions which im using (info on rtings link below)

                              On rtings they say this TV handeles 1080p different then other TVs maybe that has some point too look:
                              https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900e

                              But I don't know as I said all TVs were like that I watched TV-ok, watched movie thru PS3-OK, switch-OK, connected PC throught HDMI - headaches/eyestrain depending on TV model... connected PS4 to any TV - terrible eyestrain/headaches.

                                @Luki I don't think there is a single LED monitor out there that is "truly" flicker free. It seems there is always at least a small ripple flicker, only sometimes it's hard to measure. And no one knows if such small flicker could cause eye strain. I know that my TV can cause symptoms when I go down in brightness so that suddenly there's stronger 20-30 kHz flicker. Which contradicts theories that anything above 3.000 Hz is considered "safe". I think those theories are wrong. And I think the assumption that small or let's say super tiny flicker is automatically safe is not solid either. Think about it. We tried so many displays but sometimes we have no clue why we can't use them. What they all do have in common, apart from mostly having a White LED backlight, is at least small ripple flicker.

                                But alright, this is the temporal dithering thread. So what I am not sure about yet but what I have observed is that my Sony's feature "Reality Creation" seems to stabilize the picture. It almost looks like it could cancel out temporal dithering to some extent. Might be worth to have a look into that as you have a Sony, too. My impression is that it makes some output that's not so comfortable to look at more usable. The picture certainly looks more stable. If I set it to manual control and move the slider all the way to the right (which is not a recommendation to have a pretty picture) some pixels or areas here and there start to visibly flicker (meaning low frequency). Maybe it's temporal dithering being revealed? Happens on the PS4. It does not happen when pausing a Video or when I use VNC (on the TV).

                                  KM Well it's a possibility but then I would belive TVs would flicker more then monitors for sure. I don't have any stuff to check this manually (apart from testufo) but my fs2434 was in all reviews described as flicker free even at 1 brightness. Monitors are made for full day sitting/work whiles TVs are made for normal-casual people who sit in front of it much less. Only sony does "flicker free TVs but even on those rtings said they measure some flicker at low level backlight and it may be this that can bother.
                                  The other diference between watching on TV itself is the picture mode while on all I have processing turned off when im using PC i have to ofc use GAME mode but on TV itself you cant put game mode on. Still a mistery why on this sony limited doesnt cause pain with PC..

                                  Reality creation yes I know that well I have tried it in a movie it does the job well at making the soap opera effect and adds smoothness BUT it also adds a lot of flicker which I have tested also rtings say about this too and in my case I couldnt watch a movie with this...

                                  Last evening I had to turn on light in my room and noticed after a while that my eyes were little watery/tired after around 2 hour watching.. so refclections add some to the strain too in my case. I usually use light behind me for movies/evening but this time I have used the one in the mid.
                                  And all monitors I have tested had 3h coating matte finish while TVs are glossy or semi-glossy like my XE9005.

                                  I have also read that higher constant ratio apart from making the picture more pretty 🙂 also makes our eyes to focus more and it can add to eye strain (another factor). That try out with much lower contrast on assetto corsa wasnt a coincidence I think and as I said all monitors I have used have 1000:1 contrast ratio and TVs way higher.. Also monitors I have tried dont support HDR while all TVs do..

                                  I think it can also be just all those couple of things/factors which adds to eye strain + the age that give a results as I described and the result may vary depending on the display which is being used. Movies and TV is quite easy on the eyes and older / easier on the eyes/head games are fine for me but newer ones with smaller UI/more blur/more complicated graphisc etc harder for eyes +all those little factors which leads to eye strain and my eyes / head says NO.

                                  Might be that XE9005 is just the best from all those TVs I had to return... ATM just thinking that I would have to try out 43 monitor and lift it up as the only solution cause I had too many TVs without success.

                                  • KM replied to this.

                                      Luki99 I would believe TVs would flicker more then monitors for sure

                                      Overall they certainly do, as most of them use PWM. But even the Sonys do flicker on all brightness levels. Sites like Rtings don't test the flicker very thoroughly. They just look for obvious, strong flicker, which for Sony TVs happens to occur on the lower end of the brightness range. Sometimes they claim a device is flicker-free and yet they post oscilloscope pictures that show existing flicker (when the line is not perfectly flat). The same goes for Notebookcheck. But even a flat line doesn't mean there's no flicker. You'd need more sophisticated measurement to reveal small fluctuations. So we can't ever rule backlight flicker out, sadly. In your case the problems are probably pixel-related though, as you have input devices that work for you.

                                      Reality creation yes I know that well I have tried it in a movie it does the job well at making the soap opera effect and adds smoothness

                                      Maybe Sony changed the naming scheme of their modes at some point, but it seems you confuse that mode with "Smoothness", which does add soap opera effect by creating additional frames. Reality Creation does not do that. It analyzes the picture and tries to make it appear as if it had a higher resolution. Which in effect it does. It probably only makes sense if you have an input of less than 1:1 4K.

                                      HDR

                                      I disabled HDR on purpose. It makes the TV's backlight run at full brightness, and who knows if input devices like PS4 employ even more dithering when they see the display is HDR-compatible.

                                      RGB

                                      We do know that some GPUs/drivers deactivate temporal dithering when in limited RGB mode. But it seems that does not happen universally and can also happen the other way around (full RGB triggering the dithering). It seems multiple factors play a role, probably even info stuff the connected display digitally reports back to the PC, so maybe that's what happened to your setups.

                                          KM I won't argue about the PWM because I don't have my own stuff to test it but in my experience monitors are WAY better in terms of being eye-friendly. I still remember that three years ago after playing for less then 1 hour on PS4 on my new 4K Panasonic TV (PWM 240hz) next day I still felt eye horrible strain and headache and I saw strangly while driving car to work in the morning... And in comparison on any monitor I Never had any symptoms with any content/device.

                                          Reality creation yes I was wrong and thought you mean Smoothness sorry english is my secondary so propably that's it. I have used/tested reality creation too on couple of values but it didn't add or make any symphoms less in my experience. For me I prefered the more original picture then with this ON.

                                          As for the RGB - maybe but that still strange that on monitors same device I always get full rgb and no problems while on TVs only limited works (at least for XE9005). When I had 55 OLED at first I just watched TV for 2 days and 1 movie and it was fine and I have felt completely normal. Then I have connected PC and set up FULL RGB straight on TV and PC and run a you tube stream and had no eye strain on oled at all but I had this strange headache at the back of my head/top after about 15mins of usage. I still wonder if limited would work same way (or better) then on XE9005 🙂 cause watching just a "normal" TV (which normally I do very rarely) was a whole new experience then anything I saw.

                                            A small update... I was able to grab my first 4K Panasonic TV from my family and I have tested it for around 5-6 hours on Saturday. I have set up RGB Limited and noticed the headache at the back/top of my TV was not present at all! I was still sick for around 3 days (headache in front between eyes/forehead) but im sure that's because of PWM at 240hz which all Panas TVs are using (except OLEDs). And those symphoms from PWM as usual were slowly growing per hours while the pain from RGB full at the back/top has shown up at 15 mins of usage on all TVs always.
                                            Too bad I didnt know this when I had that OLED cause first two days if I remember correctly I had no symphoms on it (but just watched TV without connecting PC) and the pain started at third day when I have connected PC and set up RGB Full...

                                            Hi all, just back with an update - I have been using Windows 10 v2004 since May now with graphics drivers enabled on my Dell XPS 15 9560 and have been largely without any issues whatsoever. Happy days.

                                            I'm still using Ditherig.exe v1.11 (not tried any other version), Intel driver 21.20.16.4475 and Nvidia driver 26.21.14.4614.

                                            I did have a period where I started getting headaches again, and I noticed that dithering was periodically being enabled at seemingly random intervals, but probably because some request was made to the graphics drivers. I realised this was happening because my desktop background (colour #c84141) shows banding when everything is set up correctly, and no banding when my display is problematic for me - I took pictures of what I mean:

                                            1. Perfect setup - Background has Banding

                                            1. Bad Setup - No Banding

                                            Here's the desktop for you if you'd like to try it:

                                            So I am checking my desktop from time to time, and if there is no banding then I have created a shortcut which restarts explorer, and this fixes the issue. To do this:

                                            1. Right click on the desktop and go to New -> Shortcut
                                            2. In the box that appears, copy and paste this:
                                              C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe /c taskkill.exe /f /im explorer.exe && start explorer.exe
                                            3. Save the shortcut and run it whenever you need to

                                            Hope that helps you out, I can honestly say that this setup has changed my life. 🚀

                                              si_edgey Thanks for the update! Is there any chance you could post your laptop BIOS/VBIOS version at the top? I wouldn't normally suggest downgrading the BIOS but if anybody else decides to try your laptop model and has issues it could be another thing to try before returning.

                                              I have retired my old W7 tower and am now using a Ivy Bridge-era laptop which was handed down to me. It's on W8.1, HD4000 graphics, sadly only a dual core/four threads CPU but I have upgraded it to 16GB RAM and SSD and it is now keeping up with modern software nicely. MS Edge for me is still the most comfortable browser to use.

                                              I am still having real problems with new hardware however my personal setup is good for another 2/3 years at least. 🙂

                                                  diop Is there any chance you could post your laptop BIOS/VBIOS version at the top?

                                                  Sure thing - here's my full system profile for anyone that might be interested:

                                                  diop MS Edge for me is still the most comfortable browser to use.

                                                  Should mention - I'm on Edge too, definitely feels the best. Thanks for the recommendation on that one.

                                                  diop I am still having real problems with new hardware however my personal setup is good for another 2/3 years at least. 🙂

                                                  Glad to hear you have at least one working setup. I'm quite relieved that even though my CPU demands are quite high, the 7th Generation i7 still holds its own. Tempted to buy a backup motherboard in case this one ever fails..

                                                  • glvn replied to this.
                                                          4 days later

                                                          Today I found a reproducible way to confirm ditherig 1.11 functioning correctly on Intel HD Graphics 6000 with an external monitor as opposed to a laptop panel.

                                                          I have various images for calibration, and some of them are gradients. I've been testing out a displayport to HDMI adapter to my old monitor that is 6-bit+FRC (temporal dithering) in the panel itself because HD streaming movies on Prime requires both Windows 10 and HDCP which means HDMI or DVI.

                                                          It appears that on the Windows drivers for Broadwell that I use, when the HDMI cable is set for YCbCr w/ IT Content off (I have not tested if the combo of both is required or just one or the other, will have to test this out later on) dithering is actually DISABLED by default in the Intel drivers and ditherig is not needed. I checked this in Windows 10, as well with the drivers it loads on a clean install, and it has the same behaviour so this is not an artifact of the older branch and build of the drivers I use on Windows 7.

                                                          Steps to reproduce: Load up a nice big greyscale gradient image in YCbCr w/ IT Content off. What you should see: evenly spaced banding in the gradient (this is correct for this mode). Load up ditherig 1.11. What you should see: no change (it starts with dithering off).. now, if you select spatial, the greyscale gradient will turn smooth, etc. If you select temporal, you will actually see moving ripples on the image because both the monitor and the card are creating an interference pattern by doing the same thing at the same time.

                                                          Unfortunately it is not possible to shut off temporal dithering in the hardware of the monitor itself through a method currently known to me. It is probably possible using a factory service mode of some kind but it's good to know that this method of connection + setting is confirmed to not have dithering on by default and if one gets a display that is a true 8 bit or 10 bit panel with a good backlight, then eyestrain past that point should be from other sources.

                                                            si_edgey This wallpaper can't be used for me on my external monitor as the monitor itself that uses FRC smooths out the banding because the whole image is the same colour. You need a gradient image to be truly certain as per my writeup right before this.

                                                                Sunspark This wallpaper can't be used for me on my external monitor as the monitor itself that uses FRC smooths out the banding because the whole image is the same colour.

                                                                To be honest, I'm unsure of the logic behind the banding on this background! I'm guessing that theAll I know is that it's a good test on my machine.

                                                                Sunspark That's interesting, glad you've found a solution that works for you. When you mention 'YCbCr w/ IT Content off' - are these settings you find in one of the Intel settings applications that come with your driver? There's something similar in the Nvidia control panel when you have an HDMI cable plugged in.

                                                                Also, if you're able to share some of your test gradients here that could be helpful to someone. 😃

                                                                    dev