Temporal Dithering Sensitivity - My Solution

si_edgey Like you're finding out - it's a lot more complex than simply finding the right monitor. The source, the drivers, the leads, the room lighting and the monitor can all be a factor in this, so it's about finding the right combination that works for you, which may not work for anyone else. That's the difficulty with whatever condition it is that we all have.

But once you have a working setup....STOP!

This is the difficult thing. For some people who perhaps threw out/recycled/sold their old tech, all devices in their possession could be problematic. So first make sure you have a system you know has a comfortable output and then maybe play around with older OS/Drivers. You also need to know you have a good monitor, and it's difficult to separate the monitor/source as the antagonist. I haven't had much luck with any tech >2014, even refurbs from the late 2000's have caused problems for me.

si_edgey And yes, I've been working on this for 8 years and I can confirm that a monitor I can use all day long via HDMI on a 'good laptop', can trigger a migraine after 30 minutes of use on a 'bad laptop'. Very strange, but true.

Which in my opinion is a good thing because it rules out the monitor as a point of failure. It is either the output of the device itself or the drivers/software. Also if you read into how temporal dithering works, it's no surprise it's causing issues (to my knowledge, these techniques weren't used until the last decade). I don't even think it was possible to use temporal dithering on a CRT/VGA setup back in the day. You could count the pixels back then and banding was everywhere anyway .

si_edgey Well in the space of a week of me investigating causes of eye irritation mainly being classed as 'dry eye syndrome' I've unravelled quite a few things already and although I might be noob to this forum and finding a solution I've 20+ years of pain experienced with visual stress! Sadly I need to work behind a PC as I run my own business stuff but currently thats all on the backburner completely until I get sorted.

For sure, technology play a massive role, but thats only one half of the battle I feel, if your to look at a pathological approach then you have to go way back to the start which actually is your eyes. With this in mind I've found out that in each eye lid is around 30 Meibomian glands that secrete oils which mix with our tears to form a lubricant other the eye; if these ducts fail then guess what, your eyes fail to lubricate the eye so regardless of technology if people suffering eye strain have failed ducts then even the right tech is going to provide the respite were all needing.

I booked into an optician but requested the optometrist who even know what MG are and the disorder (MGD) is. Its normally a consequence of Blepharitus, as it happens I have a mild case of this and also some of my ducts are indeed blocked. There are various ways to treat this but over 70% of people over 50 suffer dry eye in any case yet with a few steps taken the impacts can be reduced, such as good eye lid hygine and the use of a warm compress (i've just bought the blephasteam, but also an electric warm compress).

The next step is to treat my eyes like teeth, which is to get each gland graded, to do this I need to get what is known as lipiview or an alternative where they can photo scan the glands, from there they can treat the blepharitus with blephex treatment (just a cleanup) and then you can consider the more aggresive options of lipoflow or IPS (intense pulse light) treatment.

Photophobia is highly linked to dry eye conditions, it normally happens after the dry eye which can explain why not things are getting worse for me, I'm not ruling out tech being a cause of distress but its just one of a whole host of ingredients I feel.......EMF? , lighting conditions, air quality, humidity, eye disorders (already mentioned, allergic conjuctivitus, anterio Uvietis xyz, hydration, diet, lighting conditions, tech) all these if boxed off I'm sure can improve the situation

In the 20 mins Its taken me to write this I can already feel the impacts its having on me, sudden heavy feeling in the eyes causing pain to radiate to my chest (no pun intended)

I saw an eye teaching hospital last Friday and they packed me away with some Vista Mesh glasses which prevent light scatter and block EMF apparently but there doing nothing for me right now I don't think. My last screen had FRM/TD and this new one does also but the only idea I have now is to try an AMVA panel, seems that has helped fix things for some people.

I wonder of my problems can be anyhow related to temporal dithering and mabye you can advice me something..

I have made some posts on the forum but short story: I was an IT guy working with different monitors and PC gamer with my montor EIZO FS2434 (it is 6bit +FRC) and never had any problems. I have also played on PS1, PS2 and PS3 with older TVs which I dont remember now all was fine. At the PS4 era I have bought a SONY TV kdl-43WD750 (claimed flicker free - DC method) and connected there PC and PS4 all was fine...
Here when the problems started.. After a year I wanted something bigger and with more hdmi inputs so I sold 43wd750 and I have bought first 4k Panasonic ex700 TV and at the same time I have bought Switch and have played on this TV only this game and only on switch for around 150h+ all was fine... after I have finished this game I went back to my PS4 and discovered I can;t use it at all I had bloody red eyes, headaches after just like 30mins.. On PC it was similar but the symphms werent that drastic but still unusable. Back then I thought its PWM (Panasonic TVs use 240hz PWM) so I have bought two other TV from SONY which gave me sympthoms... last one was SONY XE9005 (flicker free with backlight =>8/50) on this one I could use PC, TV, movies mostly withtout problems but STILL couldnt use PS4 at all (no bloody eyes but headaches). I left this XE9005 and used it for like 1-2 years with PC only and sold PS4... I had problems with some games like Sniper Ghost warrior but just skipped them... in the past couple of months I wanted to play Assetto corsa on it and the sympthoms were bad... in any sim racing game I had strong headache and eye pains. I have read on one forum that in new update TV they toned down whites on this TV which were too bright I have never update this TV but did this and it was a big mistake because TV started to became unusable for me with PC at all... even when I watch movie from connected PC im getting some headaches front/top or back at my head..
I will add that when I have tried connect back then PS4 to my EIZO FS2434 all was fine... When im watching you tube or content on this TV itself using app/browser im getting no sympthoms.. but when watching / gaming through connected PC via HDMI its horrible..when I used PS4 with it its horrible..I have tried 4k blu ray player and had to return in couldn't watcha movie... im using PS3 blu ray and that is fine.
I have also recently tried dell u4320q as replacement for my TV and there was no symphtoms at all... I could play anygame and didnt had any single symphom. Unfortunately it was a little to low and I had neck pains and had to return this because of this.
Back then years ago I have tried and took PS4 to my work and connected it to one monitor there which were using PWM and it was fine...
I have also found on this forum that RGB full disables dithering completely and I have it on full on PC and on TV but sympthoms are there... On this topic you write about that program which can disable dithering but it's only on intel CPUs? btw. im using Ryzen 1700 + gtx 1070, windows 7, old driver 382, updates off (no change/format from 3-4 years).

You could just think I could use only my Eizo monitor and be fine - right but im tired of sitting at desk after all those years and I really liked the couch relaxing gaming and I want that... Im getting tired neck/shoulders quite fast even that im exercising daily from couple of years and been visiting a physiotherapist regurally (now unfortunately of corona visits has stopped).
Best solution would be 49-50 inch monitor but there are none of this size...

So my conclusion is that if I connect almost any monitor to this PC machine or PS4 im fine but TVs are mostly not why? Monitors I usually connect throught dvi (my eizo) or DP (like that dell).
Can it be the dithering if most hardware (my PC, PS4) I connect to TV is bad? Any thoughts I would appreciate...

Thanks. Once i've uninstalled the device if I go to "scan for hardware changes" it auto adds it back with a new driver.

By the way Ditherig v1.11 is a lot better than 1.13 - tried to upgrade and it eyestrain came back.

Edit: good recommendation to disable adapters. made issues a firm 0. then it didn't matter which drivers I had

A little trick I found also. Can disable all graphics card devices in Device Manager. Seems to hugely reduce issues. I assume this disables both any nvidia and any in-built Intel graphics UHD which have dithering issues

I have found out that exclusive screen and LIMITED rgb works good for me I think... tried couple times and I felt just a little little that my eyes are working but that was night and day than previous... I was playing last two days for 2-3 hours and was ok no headache at all. For some reason screen mirror doesnt work maybe because my main is connected throught DVI (so its full rgb). The newest TVs support full rgb and some1 here made some test and said Full rgb no dithering but for some reason when Im using monitors (so full rgb then) no problems but on TVs I need to have limited and exclusive mosw for TV. I want to test this with another TV to confirm.
I can say something similar to YCP 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 - it doesnt work for me... same headaches at the back/top of my head. I have recently bought new Panasonic 4K player and I have watched blu ray Predator movie and after just 10-15mins this headache started... Went to options and it was set to YCP 4:4:4. Then I went back to my old blu ray player which is PS3 for me and is set up to RGB limited at default and same movie no sympthoms at all... Althrought with PS4 I had headaches too can't remember tho how it was set up probably on automatic ( I mean the rgb range)
So thats why I Could watch TV itself - no problems and you tube stream on TV itself - no problem but when connected PC to TV with full RGB - headaches... something with the signal or TV not working good in RGB/YCP4:4:4 for me? Maybe some1 has any thoghts/experience on this...

Yes but you havent read my previous posts I Think it seems? THe player was just an another example of stuff which gave me headache same as PS4 for example in the past.
I repeat my story in short: I had 43wd750 SONY TV in the past and I was playing on it with PS4 and PC no problems at all... One day I have bought Switch and this TV had only 2 hdmi so I sold it (I regret this to this day..) and went for 4k Panasonic TV 50". At this time I have only been playing zelda on switch and had no issues at all for like 150h with this game... Then I went back to my PC and PS4 to discover I can't use it anymore with PC I had little headaches and with PS4 I had bloody eyes and really serious headaches but when connected any of this to monitor FS2434 - no problems... Back then I thought its PWM on Panasonic (but now thinking logic the PWM was still there while playing 150h on Switch Zelda game..) so I Have bought SONY XE9005 on which I could play most games on PC but Couldnt on PS4 due to headaches. I have been using this TV from 2017 with PC as second monitor and recently it got an update which made it unusable for me on PC again...
I have tried couple of screens including 4-5 TVs (OLED also) with similar results: when I have watched TV itself or something via internet / app on TV - no problems, using my PS3 and playing blu ray - no problems (PS3 has set up limited RGB as default). The moment when I have plugged my pc into the hdmi of TV same content like you tube stream was with headaches... I have also tried Dell u4320q which didnt give me any headaches on any content.. but sadly it gave me neck pains cause its a little to low for my couch viewing I have also received a bad unit (was higher on left side then on right) so I have returned it anyway.
After returning all those TVs I sit back on my XE9005 again and discovered that TV after update was not sending good signal in terms of FULL/LIMITED I have restored it and it started to work as it should.

Now the point: I have discovered that putting it to LIMITED RGB (both TV and PC) and not using screen mirror but exclusive mode (I have tested using limited and screen duplicate and headaches were there..) on TV dont give me headache SO IM BACK to 2017 WHEN I HAVE BOUGHT THIS TV... btw. before update I could use it with screen mirror without headaches
Now when I think of it I remember putting all my TVs for FULL and PC too and it propably was the cause.. because I have read here on the forum that someone did test and RGB full dont produce temporal dithering at all.
I could assume if I would have ps4 now and could set it manually to limited it could work... same with that blu ray player or other stuff and maybe those TVs that I have returned would work in exclusive mode/limited rgb tgo? ofc im not 100% sure

The important fact: Im going back with memory to that old SONY 43wd750 TV and there was no problems at all.. but I remember I had it in other room and had to connect the hdmi each time to TV to play on couch cause the cable was going thru other room AND when you connect the hdmi in the TV it is set up in nvidia control panel to LIMITED RGB as default so I assume TV was sending limited also and it worked for me.. I wasn't thinking of any of this back then cause I had no sympthoms I just plugged the PC set TV to game and no more changes..

So as you can see "bad" player/console/hardware dont 100% fit for me cause same hardware connected to monitor is usually 100% fine.. I can't remember using anything with monitor giving me problems... I remember I have once took the PS4 to my work and I have played it for coulpe hours without headaches to make sure the PS4 is ok and is not with Panasonic 4k Tv..

I could try that u4320q again and try to lift it but best what I would like is a bigger screen and there are no 50-55 monitors apart from like alienware55 oled which is overpriced and I think similar to TV or should be and I can;t be sure if it would fit me head..

Monitors use FULL RGB tho and here is my question what are the differences between TVs receiving signal and monitor? Why same hardware works for me on monitors (sending full rgb then?) but not on TVs?

I have been thinking maybe it's couple of things / factors but what?!...

Sunspark I doubt its the processing in my case why?
First as I said - When I watch TV or you tube streams on TV itself or when I watch blu ray movie from player I have no sympthoms at all and I cant watch TV even in "bad" picture mode like normal which have the most processing turned on (I tested this) but usually I watch at "true cinema" "custom" or similar which is most accurate/calibrated mode on most TVs ( rtings usually have info about most accurate mode on any TV). Belive me I have tested most of those picture modes it makes no difference - because of the second read below...
Also It's just simple logic - same you tube stream on TV itself no symphoms and identical stream played via PC connected throu hdmi to TV give symphoms!
Second - I have literally all procesing turned off on all TVs I have tried. Just everything.
Third - If you would read my post above more carefully you would see that 4:4:4 gives me headaches also... and yes I know about rename HDMI input to game/PC its required on LG for example but for eg. on the SONY you dont need to rename labels.

Still weird thing is that with RGB limited I have no symphoms on my SONY TV I will test this furthermore but with RGB FULL on TVs hedaches are there but on monitors are not with same device..
Unfortunatelly I would need another TV to test if RGB limited would work for me same as on my TV SONY now.

It's something when connecting PC/console throught HDMI to TV... and something related to colors/rgb range in my case and maybe some sort of temporal dithering with some devices/screens in my case.
A mystery why on monitors its fine tho...