I wonder of my problems can be anyhow related to temporal dithering and mabye you can advice me something..

I have made some posts on the forum but short story: I was an IT guy working with different monitors and PC gamer with my montor EIZO FS2434 (it is 6bit +FRC) and never had any problems. I have also played on PS1, PS2 and PS3 with older TVs which I dont remember now all was fine. At the PS4 era I have bought a SONY TV kdl-43WD750 (claimed flicker free - DC method) and connected there PC and PS4 all was fine...
Here when the problems started.. After a year I wanted something bigger and with more hdmi inputs so I sold 43wd750 and I have bought first 4k Panasonic ex700 TV and at the same time I have bought Switch and have played on this TV only this game and only on switch for around 150h+ all was fine... after I have finished this game I went back to my PS4 and discovered I can;t use it at all I had bloody red eyes, headaches after just like 30mins.. On PC it was similar but the symphms werent that drastic but still unusable. Back then I thought its PWM (Panasonic TVs use 240hz PWM) so I have bought two other TV from SONY which gave me sympthoms... last one was SONY XE9005 (flicker free with backlight =>8/50) on this one I could use PC, TV, movies mostly withtout problems but STILL couldnt use PS4 at all (no bloody eyes but headaches). I left this XE9005 and used it for like 1-2 years with PC only and sold PS4... I had problems with some games like Sniper Ghost warrior but just skipped them... in the past couple of months I wanted to play Assetto corsa on it and the sympthoms were bad... in any sim racing game I had strong headache and eye pains. I have read on one forum that in new update TV they toned down whites on this TV which were too bright I have never update this TV but did this and it was a big mistake because TV started to became unusable for me with PC at all... even when I watch movie from connected PC im getting some headaches front/top or back at my head..
I will add that when I have tried connect back then PS4 to my EIZO FS2434 all was fine... When im watching you tube or content on this TV itself using app/browser im getting no sympthoms.. but when watching / gaming through connected PC via HDMI its horrible..when I used PS4 with it its horrible..I have tried 4k blu ray player and had to return in couldn't watcha movie... im using PS3 blu ray and that is fine.
I have also recently tried dell u4320q as replacement for my TV and there was no symphtoms at all... I could play anygame and didnt had any single symphom. Unfortunately it was a little to low and I had neck pains and had to return this because of this.
Back then years ago I have tried and took PS4 to my work and connected it to one monitor there which were using PWM and it was fine...
I have also found on this forum that RGB full disables dithering completely and I have it on full on PC and on TV but sympthoms are there... On this topic you write about that program which can disable dithering but it's only on intel CPUs? btw. im using Ryzen 1700 + gtx 1070, windows 7, old driver 382, updates off (no change/format from 3-4 years).

You could just think I could use only my Eizo monitor and be fine - right but im tired of sitting at desk after all those years and I really liked the couch relaxing gaming and I want that... Im getting tired neck/shoulders quite fast even that im exercising daily from couple of years and been visiting a physiotherapist regurally (now unfortunately of corona visits has stopped).
Best solution would be 49-50 inch monitor but there are none of this size...

So my conclusion is that if I connect almost any monitor to this PC machine or PS4 im fine but TVs are mostly not why? Monitors I usually connect throught dvi (my eizo) or DP (like that dell).
Can it be the dithering if most hardware (my PC, PS4) I connect to TV is bad? Any thoughts I would appreciate...

    Dominic Hi there, it's the XPS 9560 FHD (1920x1080 Matte Screen). Good luck, remember to install ditherig and old intel drivers and also report back here. 😀

    Luki99 I can only go by my experience but I have had the same confusing journey as you, going through loads of hardware and software trying to work out what this elusive issue it. My best guess for my condition is still dithering of some kind and I would say that yours sounds similar, given that the same hardware can be either 'good' or 'bad' depending on what you plug it into (and even what cable you use!).

    You're doing the right thing with your Windows machine - once you've found a setup that works you have to just stick with it and not change a thing. This issue is very hard to test for as it builds up over time. I also have neck and shoulder pain which has developed over the years and it is definitely aggravated by dithering or LED flickering of some kind.

    I did a computer games development degree, used to love gaming hugely but I just don't bother any more - even on my working setups I can experience migraines and headaches / neck pain with some games so it's just not worth it sadly. I wish there was better news but everyone is different and there doesn't seem to be one cure that works for everyone. I'm guessing this is because it is a neurological condition of some kind that is so far mis-understood (at best) or not yet acknowledged by science at all.

          si_edgey Thanks, I will definitely report back. Could you just specify if your Dell is Intel i7 or i3? I have these two options to buy.

              how do you roll back to old intel drivers? do you uninstall the device and then install new? trying to find old drivers for Intel 630 that will be old enough to have no issues

                Dominic Could you just specify if your Dell is Intel i7 or i3? I have these two options to buy.

                Mine is the i7 variant (i7 7700HQ). I would recommend trying this setup first to see if it's a working setup for you before upgrading to 2004, as others seem to have issues with W10 v2004.

                Laptop: Dell XPS 9560, with 1080p FHD matte screen
                Windows Version: Windows 10 version 1511 (this is very important)
                System tweaks: Intel & Nvidia Display adapters disabled in Device Manager
                Software: Ditherig v1.11 with all dithering disabled, Windows Update Blocker:

                https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-5/

                Quad43 how do you roll back to old intel drivers? do you uninstall the device and then install new?

                That's right - it's quite simple. These drivers work for me: 21.20.16.4475:

                https://drivers.softpedia.com/get/GRAPHICS-BOARD/INTEL/Intel-HD-Graphics-620-Driver-2120164475-for-Windows-10-64-bit.shtml

                    Thanks. Once i've uninstalled the device if I go to "scan for hardware changes" it auto adds it back with a new driver.

                    By the way Ditherig v1.11 is a lot better than 1.13 - tried to upgrade and it eyestrain came back.

                    Edit: good recommendation to disable adapters. made issues a firm 0. then it didn't matter which drivers I had

                    21 days later

                    A little trick I found also. Can disable all graphics card devices in Device Manager. Seems to hugely reduce issues. I assume this disables both any nvidia and any in-built Intel graphics UHD which have dithering issues

                    I have write a post above and my conclusion is when I connect my PC (propably same with PS4 but I sold it) to any monitor I have tested I have no problems (I Have tried couple 24 and some bigger ones like 43 dell) but when I Connect it to 4K TV ( I have tested 5or6 diferent) I'm getting headaches at the top/back of my head althrought no eyestrain.. so wth? ??
                    The monitors im usually connecting throught DVI but my main monitor EIZO fs2434 is now connected with dvi and was also with hdmi - no problems. As for TVs im connecting it with the only available connection which is HDMI. I have tried FLL and LIMITED RGB and also screen duplicate vs display only on TV headaches are still there while gaming...
                    STRANGE thing is when I will watch a stream from PC connected to the TV im getting those headaches but when I watch the same stream on the TV itself using just you tube app no sympthoms can watch all day... I can also watch my blu ray collection movies from my blu ray player - which is PS3 super slim. I had same problems with PS4 tho connecting it to my TV gave me hadaches but not on monitor...
                    Strange that on my older full hd TV I was playing on pc and ps with no problems... I think im lost..:"(
                    Why monitors are fine and TVs are not for me while gaming?

                    5 days later

                    I have found out that exclusive screen and LIMITED rgb works good for me I think... tried couple times and I felt just a little little that my eyes are working but that was night and day than previous... I was playing last two days for 2-3 hours and was ok no headache at all. For some reason screen mirror doesnt work maybe because my main is connected throught DVI (so its full rgb). The newest TVs support full rgb and some1 here made some test and said Full rgb no dithering but for some reason when Im using monitors (so full rgb then) no problems but on TVs I need to have limited and exclusive mosw for TV. I want to test this with another TV to confirm.
                    I can say something similar to YCP 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 - it doesnt work for me... same headaches at the back/top of my head. I have recently bought new Panasonic 4K player and I have watched blu ray Predator movie and after just 10-15mins this headache started... Went to options and it was set to YCP 4:4:4. Then I went back to my old blu ray player which is PS3 for me and is set up to RGB limited at default and same movie no sympthoms at all... Althrought with PS4 I had headaches too can't remember tho how it was set up probably on automatic ( I mean the rgb range)
                    So thats why I Could watch TV itself - no problems and you tube stream on TV itself - no problem but when connected PC to TV with full RGB - headaches... something with the signal or TV not working good in RGB/YCP4:4:4 for me? Maybe some1 has any thoghts/experience on this...

                      Luki99 You changed two variables here. Video levels was one, changing the player itself is a major variable because a player includes as components, GPU, hardware firmware and software drivers.

                        Yes but you havent read my previous posts I Think it seems? THe player was just an another example of stuff which gave me headache same as PS4 for example in the past.
                        I repeat my story in short: I had 43wd750 SONY TV in the past and I was playing on it with PS4 and PC no problems at all... One day I have bought Switch and this TV had only 2 hdmi so I sold it (I regret this to this day..) and went for 4k Panasonic TV 50". At this time I have only been playing zelda on switch and had no issues at all for like 150h with this game... Then I went back to my PC and PS4 to discover I can't use it anymore with PC I had little headaches and with PS4 I had bloody eyes and really serious headaches but when connected any of this to monitor FS2434 - no problems... Back then I thought its PWM on Panasonic (but now thinking logic the PWM was still there while playing 150h on Switch Zelda game..) so I Have bought SONY XE9005 on which I could play most games on PC but Couldnt on PS4 due to headaches. I have been using this TV from 2017 with PC as second monitor and recently it got an update which made it unusable for me on PC again...
                        I have tried couple of screens including 4-5 TVs (OLED also) with similar results: when I have watched TV itself or something via internet / app on TV - no problems, using my PS3 and playing blu ray - no problems (PS3 has set up limited RGB as default). The moment when I have plugged my pc into the hdmi of TV same content like you tube stream was with headaches... I have also tried Dell u4320q which didnt give me any headaches on any content.. but sadly it gave me neck pains cause its a little to low for my couch viewing I have also received a bad unit (was higher on left side then on right) so I have returned it anyway.
                        After returning all those TVs I sit back on my XE9005 again and discovered that TV after update was not sending good signal in terms of FULL/LIMITED I have restored it and it started to work as it should.

                        Now the point: I have discovered that putting it to LIMITED RGB (both TV and PC) and not using screen mirror but exclusive mode (I have tested using limited and screen duplicate and headaches were there..) on TV dont give me headache SO IM BACK to 2017 WHEN I HAVE BOUGHT THIS TV... btw. before update I could use it with screen mirror without headaches
                        Now when I think of it I remember putting all my TVs for FULL and PC too and it propably was the cause.. because I have read here on the forum that someone did test and RGB full dont produce temporal dithering at all.
                        I could assume if I would have ps4 now and could set it manually to limited it could work... same with that blu ray player or other stuff and maybe those TVs that I have returned would work in exclusive mode/limited rgb tgo? ofc im not 100% sure

                        The important fact: Im going back with memory to that old SONY 43wd750 TV and there was no problems at all.. but I remember I had it in other room and had to connect the hdmi each time to TV to play on couch cause the cable was going thru other room AND when you connect the hdmi in the TV it is set up in nvidia control panel to LIMITED RGB as default so I assume TV was sending limited also and it worked for me.. I wasn't thinking of any of this back then cause I had no sympthoms I just plugged the PC set TV to game and no more changes..

                        So as you can see "bad" player/console/hardware dont 100% fit for me cause same hardware connected to monitor is usually 100% fine.. I can't remember using anything with monitor giving me problems... I remember I have once took the PS4 to my work and I have played it for coulpe hours without headaches to make sure the PS4 is ok and is not with Panasonic 4k Tv..

                        I could try that u4320q again and try to lift it but best what I would like is a bigger screen and there are no 50-55 monitors apart from like alienware55 oled which is overpriced and I think similar to TV or should be and I can;t be sure if it would fit me head..

                        Monitors use FULL RGB tho and here is my question what are the differences between TVs receiving signal and monitor? Why same hardware works for me on monitors (sending full rgb then?) but not on TVs?

                        I have been thinking maybe it's couple of things / factors but what?!...

                          In short? 😉 One factor that comes to mind is the processing mode. TVs used to just be a screen, now they're all "smart" tvs. Gamers know to use "game mode" which shuts off most of the post-processing features which introduce input lag and probably other stuff. Some monitors like mine have this as a selection also. I don't use it because for my PC I use chroma 4:4:4 and game mode setting on the monitor is 4:2:2. I know for some TVs you actually have to go into the settings and rename one of the HDMI ports to PC or something like that (depends on which tv it is) in order to force it to use chroma 4:4:4.

                            Sunspark I doubt its the processing in my case why?
                            First as I said - When I watch TV or you tube streams on TV itself or when I watch blu ray movie from player I have no sympthoms at all and I cant watch TV even in "bad" picture mode like normal which have the most processing turned on (I tested this) but usually I watch at "true cinema" "custom" or similar which is most accurate/calibrated mode on most TVs ( rtings usually have info about most accurate mode on any TV). Belive me I have tested most of those picture modes it makes no difference - because of the second read below...
                            Also It's just simple logic - same you tube stream on TV itself no symphoms and identical stream played via PC connected throu hdmi to TV give symphoms!
                            Second - I have literally all procesing turned off on all TVs I have tried. Just everything.
                            Third - If you would read my post above more carefully you would see that 4:4:4 gives me headaches also... and yes I know about rename HDMI input to game/PC its required on LG for example but for eg. on the SONY you dont need to rename labels.

                            Still weird thing is that with RGB limited I have no symphoms on my SONY TV I will test this furthermore but with RGB FULL on TVs hedaches are there but on monitors are not with same device..
                            Unfortunatelly I would need another TV to test if RGB limited would work for me same as on my TV SONY now.

                            It's something when connecting PC/console throught HDMI to TV... and something related to colors/rgb range in my case and maybe some sort of temporal dithering with some devices/screens in my case.
                            A mystery why on monitors its fine tho...

                              Luki99 Now the point: I have discovered that putting it to LIMITED RGB (both TV and PC) and not using screen mirror but exclusive mode (I have tested using limited and screen duplicate and headaches were there..) on TV dont give me headache SO IM BACK to 2017 WHEN I HAVE BOUGHT THIS TV

                              1. please write the configuration of your PC: video card (GPU)/ driver_version/ OS_version
                              2. Has the PC configuration changed since 2017? especially the video card
                              3. if you have an NV video card, try https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2020-lg-cx%E2%80%93gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-and-pc.3138274/page-21#post-59699820
                                nvcontrol 8 RGBLM
                                vs
                                nvcontrol 8 RGB 2
                                Do you feel the difference in eye strain?

                                  glvn
                                  It's GTX 1070 asus strix driver 382.05 (default from CD), Windows 7 without updates from around 4 years nothing has changed not even a cable. BUT the problem with outpout started after TV updates I think I have write about it.

                                  Thanks for the reply but I dont think focusing on PC is a good trace... because im using it on my monitor and it dont give me any symphoms. As I have write above but I will repeat: I have also connected PS4 to this TV and other panasonic 4k TV and had strong sympthoms while on my older TV there were none... Also I was connecting same PS4 to three different monitors - no problems.

                                  This TV now which I have XE9005 SONY is not ideal too... while I said I have nosymphoms IF ITS IN LIMITED RGB and I can play most games - yes thats correct but I have mostly played older games on it. For e.g. one day I have tried Assetto corsa and project cars and coudlnt stand more then 20-30mins and in previous years I have played assetto for 1,5 year on my monitor without single issue/pain. The headache from playing assetto laster even 3 days... after just 1 hour of it on this TV... and most other games - fine (on PC because as I said on PS4 any game gave me headache/eye strain). I remember once I have dropped contrast on this TV from 90 to 50 and assetto game looked quite fine and I was able to play for 1,5 no symphoms but other content on contrast 50 looked VERY DARK (barely could see stuff).
                                  I will add that my main monitor EIZO FS2434 does use FRC so not quite fit to temporal dithering?

                                  My guess is something not quite working from the 4k era TVs for me... someone here on forum said screens with contrast ratio 1000:1 or below works for him... and I have checked that my old TV was 1000:1 and all monitors were too 1000:1 (IPS panels mostly) and that contrast lowering working on assetto corsa maybe thats a some trace...
                                  One thing in common is all new 4k TVs have PFS luminodiode while all those monitors have old white W-LED maybe it is somehow related or the contrast is to high for me on TVs for gaming but fine for movies and TV? dont know..

                                  • glvn replied to this.

                                      Luki99 It's GTX 1070 asus strix driver 382.05 (default from CD), Windows 7 without updates from around 4 years nothing has changed not even a cable.

                                      My main version is TEMPORAL DITHERING PC video output (or other devices). But gf1070 is noted by most users here as susceptible to dithering issue. In what way do you connect FS2434 to a PC? (DP, DWI).
                                      Perhaps dithering is enabled/disabled implicitly, depending on other video output settings (video output port type, OS and driver version, output range, EDID of the connected device, but these are my assumptions)

                                      Luki99 BUT the problem with outpout started after TV updates

                                      It is very strange that this did not affect the appearance of the problem when playing with the built-in player. Has the Android version changed?

                                      Luki99 Also I was connecting same PS4 to three different monitors - no problems.

                                      in all cases, was the HDMI connection type and full range used?

                                      Luki99 I will add that my main monitor EIZO FS2434 does use FRC so not quite fit to temporal dithering?

                                      FRС is "dithering" which is done by the monitor matrix itself, temporal dithering is done independently on the GPU PC (or other connected device) if I figured it out correctly
                                      Our headaches and eye strain problems are most likely to have similar symptoms, but many different causes 🙁

                                      your best combination for XE9005 now: win7+1070(HDMI limited output range) ?

                                                glvn
                                                FS2434 I have it connected to this PC via DVI I had it connected also thru HDMI in both versions there were no issues at all IN FACT ANYTHING that I have connected to this monitor never gave me any symphoms.

                                                "It is very strange that this did not affect the appearance of the problem when playing with the built-in player. Has the Android version changed?"
                                                Yes. The newest is Oreo I think and oldest was Android 6 if I remember correctly.

                                                " Also I was connecting same PS4 to three different monitors - no problems.
                                                in all cases, was the HDMI connection type and full range used?"
                                                With PS4 back then I had it set to auto same as TV and in that setup it was working in FULL RGB range. I think I have tried it with this tv with limited too but cant remember effects so it had to be bad (if it would work I would remember). And when I connected to monitors I didnt change anything just plugged HDMI to a monitor and played but then it should work in FULL also propably if signal was read good between ps4 auto - monitor.

                                                "your best combination for XE9005 now: win7+1070(HDMI limited output range) ?"
                                                As for this PC with TV yes but as I said not all games. Also the PS3 as blu ray player works great (limited too).

                                                I have tried couple of TVs but discovered limited range just now and on all of those TVs I had full rgb... for example I had Panas OLED and watching it was fine... movie fine... just plugged PC set up full and headaches at back/top of my head pop in just in 10-15mins, similar with other TVs whichj I have returned in past 2 months. I couldnt trty PS4 now cause I sold it back then.
                                                I have also tried 43 monitor and that worked well I have tested 1,5hour in assetto corsa and I have felt just like on my FS2434. Too bad they don't produce 50-55 inch monitors 🙂

                                                • glvn replied to this.

                                                    Luki99 I have also tried 43 monitor and that worked well I have tested 1,5hour in assetto corsa and I have felt just like on my FS2434

                                                    DP or HDMI? full or limited ?

                                                        glvn DP with full rgb.

                                                        I'm thinking there can be no other solution then to buy a 43 monitor and lift it up (it was too low for me and gave me neck pains) and live with smaller screen or play older games as I do now on Xe9005. I like movies also and this sony is very good for it that's why its also tought for me going smaller.

                                                        I have also found a strange Acer monitor... Acer EB490QK and EB550K. Almost no reviews tho I have found just one translated from Russian language, it's flicker free, W-LED but has two downsides... 1. GLOSSY 2. quite a lot of bad customers opinions on it with a defect/malfuntion within 0-8months of use.

                                                        Maybe also some idea would be to buy PS4 if I find a place with easy return for a console and TRY to set it up manually for LIMITED and see if that works on XE9005.

                                                          Luki99 I have also recently tried dell u4320q as replacement for my TV and there was no symphtoms at all... I could play anygame and didnt had any single symphom. Unfortunately it was a little to low and I had neck pains

                                                          I misunderstood "little to low" as a too small pixel 43" 4k 🙁

                                                          I don't understand how 4k 55 TV is fundamentally different from 4k 55 monitor:

                                                          1. monitor supports 4: 4: 4 (and 4:4:4 60Hz)
                                                          2. the monitor does not "improve" the image
                                                            the limited range does not affect any of this if I understand correctly

                                                          does the XE9005 have a "PC mode"? "improvements" should be disabled in this mode
                                                          does the XE9005 support 4:4:4 ?

                                                              dev