• OSWindows
  • Feedback from Microsoft OS engineers and something that is helping me

ensete Wow, this is great! Hoping you can build up a tolerance to go even longer! Thanks for updating us.

Out of curiosity, would this be picked up on a capture card? I'm unsure how a capture card would work with this Vertical Blank Lock.

From our Windows 11 thread, it seems Windows 11 is either the same or better than Windows 10 (for our issue), so it seems Windows 11 seems more promising.

I couldn't find anything on Google for "Vertical Blank Lock", so I guess this is purely internal to MS. The reason I am curious is I am wondering if Apple/Linux distros use a similar technique (probably called something else).

  • JTL replied to this.

    ensete By any chance, did the engineer tell you what version of Windows 10 the Vertical Blank Lock was introduced or was it always there? There are some reports here of the really old Windows 10 versions being more usable

      ryans He did not, only that is was a core part of the display subsytem in Windows 10 and could not be bypassed or removed.

      ensete

      Thank you very much for sharing this, glad you seem to have found a solution that reduces symptoms. If happen to have a MacOS device as well, would you mind testing it with the 144Hz monitor as well? I'd be curious to see if Apple does anything like Vertical Blank Locking, + if the monitor would reduce symptoms in a similar way.

      ensete My employer has a master level service agreement with Microsoft which allows me to speak directly with senior level accommodation agents and the coders/engineers who develop the Windows OS

      I won't go into all the details verbatim, but one engineer came up with a hypothesis as to why Windows 10 is unusable for me vs Windows 7 causing me zero discomfort

      Now we're potentially getting somewhere. I think part of the key working with engineers/project managers at big tech companies is having a technical hypothesis with a "cause and effect" relationship along with known working good/bad setups that could be quantified and investigated by quality assurance type departments, rather than just "my eyes hurt", which is where all the usual advice about blue light, flickers and other platitudes from those in power disperse.

      As @ryans has said, technologies like screen readers do exist for completely blind people and those are supported by "big tech companies" often with known bug trackers and QA of its own.

      ryans I couldn't find anything on Google for "Vertical Blank Lock", so I guess this is purely internal to MS. The reason I am curious is I am wondering if Apple/Linux distros use a similar technique (probably called something else).

      My guess is that it's either an internal name for "vertical sync" or related to it. Lack of vertical sync (aka VSync) causes screen tearing which some people have equated to being an eyestrain trigger though...

        JTL Furthermore, on reflection from memory. I remember the Windows Aero themes on older versions of Windows also used VSync (and Classic theme did not), and I don't recall many people have problems with that.

        @ensete Not raining on your parade, just sharing what I know.

        ensete Sounds great. Would you share which monitor you got? I think in a way, this indeed is a sort of flicker. The refresh could interfere with other flicker types, making the overall frequency so low that it is painful (even on pixel level).

        Would be great if you could test it also with some apple. But if you share what you bought, Ill buy it with return period and test is on my mac.

        ensete Are you still doing the patching? Or this 144Hz monitor eliminates the need for patching?

        Is Windows 7 still better than Windows 10 with 144Hz monitor?

        This is excellent news. I was wondering what other technologies were being used other than the traditional forms of flicker. Thank you very much for sharing!!

        ??

        "This is a feature of DWM where Windows only displays updates on the monitor at discrete intervals, tied to the refresh rate of the monitor. This is at the pixel level so you can't actually see it, but it is happening. In Windows 7 in Classic Mode, Vertical Blank Locking is bypassed and screen contents are rendered directly to the screen. In Windows 10, you cannot disable it."

        Well yeah.. DWN has vsync on, and the discrete intervals are the refresh rate, usually 60 Hz.

        The Windows 7 Classic mode differs from XP in that 7 has brutal tearing. It cannot be used for videos without tearing. You NEED vsync for videos. Though it's been a long time and I haven't tested to see if overlay in 7 Classic theme avoids the tearing in videos or if it is also susceptible.

        Good that they worked on vsync, because Chrome has problems with vsync lag in Windows.

        The advice to use a 144 Hz monitor is not bad, but a 120 Hz monitor is better IMO. Why? Because for video the integer multiple is evenly divisible. 24, 30, 60 Hz all divide neatly. With 144 only 24 does. Though, 60, 120 etc. would have the ability to beat in time with AC power, 144 would be offset from that, so it would be better in an environment still using magnetic ballast fluorescents..

        You are still using vsync in Windows 7 if you're in the Aero theme.

        I'd be curious to see if Apple does anything like Vertical Blank Locking, + if the monitor would reduce symptoms in a similar way.

        I do have a Macbook, however the internal screen of this Macbook does not cause me symptoms. However if history repeats itself, when that Macbook updates (which it will, by corporate policy) the internal screen will then be unusable for me, at which point yes I can test this monitor on it

        As @ryans has said, technologies like screen readers do exist for completely blind people and those are supported by "big tech companies" often with known bug trackers and QA of its own.

        I asked about something like this, the engineer did about 2 weeks of research to see if a one off patch just for me could be developed for Windows 10 which would basically revert the Windows 10 display subsytem to work like Windows 7. After researching, his verdict was that it was not possible.

        Sounds great. Would you share which monitor you got?

        Dell 144Hz Gaming Monitor FHD 24 Inch Monitor - 1ms Response Time, LED Edgelight System, AMD FreeSync Premium, VESA, Gray - S2421HGF - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089T73ZB9/

        Funny enough, the monitor itself looks pretty shitty. The colors are washed out, the viewing angle sucks, the color gamut is wildly out of calibration. But my symptoms have significantly improved.

        It is important to set your video card to the full 144Hz refresh rate, mine defaulted to 120 and I had to go in and specify a custom resolution to get it to run at 144. At 120Hz there was significantly less symptom reduction that 144Hz.

        I think in a way, this indeed is a sort of flicker.

        The engineer said it was not a "flicker", it was an intentional drawing of the screen at discreet intervals. When I think of a "flicker", to me that means a change in the backlight at a certain frequency. This is not that. this is windows saying "OK I'll draw 1/2 the screen now, then I will wait a specific time period (tied to the refresh rate of the monitor), then draw the other half of the screen, then wait that time period, then draw the other half of the screen" on and on.

        My previous monitor, which was a Dell P2214H, is certified to be "flicker free" but runs at 60hz and was unusable for me if I was not patching.

        But if you share what you bought, Ill buy it with return period and test is on my mac.

        I think that's a good idea, it's less than $200. For what we all get gouged for by snake oil salesmen promising us the moon because they sense our desperation, that's a hell of a bargain.

        Are you still doing the patching? Or this 144Hz monitor eliminates the need for patching?

        The 144hz monitor has completely eliminated the need for patching. Patching on the 60Hz monitor was basically like using the 144Hz monitor non patched. It is so nice to have binocular vision back.

        Is Windows 7 still better than Windows 10 with 144Hz monitor?

        Yes. Windows 7, with my 60Hz Dell P2214H, is better than my Win10 setup with the 144Hz monitor. If I had to quantify it, on a scale of 1 to 10,1 being the worst and 10 being the best, if Windows 7 was a 10, Windows 10 with the 144Hz monitor is a solid 8.

        The advice to use a 144 Hz monitor is not bad, but a 120 Hz monitor is better IMO.

        Using the monitor at 120Hz was significantly worse than using it on 144Hz. I do not think Vertical Blank Locking is the same as vsync. For example I get no tearing at all in my windows 7 in classic mode.

        At this point I am able to use this setup pretty much all day with minimal symptoms, not symptom free, but within the limits of what I can manage/deal with. It has been a true lifesaver that has allowed me to keep my career (and my ability to support my family), which I have been seriously contemplating having to change given my inability to use the standard OS used by corporate America. I know not everyone is well off enough to do so, but if you can, give this monitor a shot and see if it helps.

          ensete It has been a true lifesaver that has allowed me to keep my career (and my ability to support my family)

          I'm so glad!! Are you able to share what PC model and Windows OS build you use?


          Folks here might recall a previous thread in which the HP Omen gaming laptops was "usable" (specific model in their case OMEN Laptop - 15-ek0005na), had a 144Hz panel:

          39.6 cm (15.6") diagonal FHD, 144 Hz, IPS, anti-glare, micro-edge, WLED-backlit, 300 nits, 72% NTSC (1920 x 1080)

          It was speculated the NVIDIA graphs was helping them, but it now seems possible the 144Hz was helping too.

          If you ever talk to the engineer again, it would be awesome to get as many details as you can on what this Vertical Blank Lock is. I'd love to see it on a capture card.

          The fact Microsoft let an engineer spend 2 weeks to try to help you I think is big step in the right direction IMHO, though I agree we can't expect them to make custom patches for us.

          Thanks for sharing, this thread really gives me hope, which we all need.

            Assuming your graphics card supports it, would a 360Hz monitor be even better?

            Also curious if you're going to give Windows 11 a try.

            • AGI replied to this.

              ensete Thanks for this. You've convinced me to get a high refresh monitor. I'd love to try the new Macs, so if I get any improvement on Windows 10 & 11 I'd try it in combination with an M1 mac as well.

              ryans I agree we can't expect them to make custom patches for us.

              I mean, it took a lot of "kicking and screaming" along with bribe money enough license revenue from the embedded device industry (think ATMs, hotel kiosks, etc) to produce builds of XP with security patches after its end of life. Can't really match that given the relative rareness of "our" issue.

              What I don't think is entirely unreasonable is if we can demonstrate a consistent "cause and effect" relationship between a particular function and its impact on eyestrain that can be changed in code, perhaps certain accessibility toggles could be added. I think at a minimum we NEED to have some of our empirical research in hand to avoid sending certain engineers and project managers in a "needle in a haystack" style search which may cause hostility or lack of interest solving this.

              ryans , it would be awesome to get as many details as you can on what this Vertical Blank Lock is. I'd love to see it on a capture card.

              Another idea I had is while "modern" Windows probably isn't doing anything causing screen flicker by itself, a potential avenue of investigation is attempt to render the same scene by the Windows desktop/DWM on a "good" and "bad" setup and differentiate the frames between the two files.

              ensete The engineer said it was not a "flicker", it was an intentional drawing of the screen at discreet intervals. When I think of a "flicker", to me that means a change in the backlight at a certain frequency. This is not that. this is windows saying "OK I'll draw 1/2 the screen now, then I will wait a specific time period (tied to the refresh rate of the monitor), then draw the other half of the screen, then wait that time period, then draw the other half of the screen" on and on.

              This reminds me of interlace flicker you would see on older games consoles such as the PS1. Interlacing is alternate lines being drawn which is essentially flicker, but afaik the old CRT sets made it easier on the eyes.

              it would be interesting to know what intervals/timing is used. By the sounds of things it must be a multiple of 144hz being used, or very close?

              This is great news, next time I upgrade I will try a 144hz monitor.

                I'm so glad!! Are you able to share what PC model and Windows OS build you use?

                It's an HP desktop with an nVidia graphics card I put in, I don't know the Wkn 10 version offhand, I can check tomm.

                If you ever talk to the engineer again, it would be awesome to get as many details as you can on what this Vertical Blank Lock is. I'd love to see it on a capture card.

                I can ask for more details but he is not an easy person t get time with. I will work with my MS Support contact and see if I can get some more meetings.

                The fact Microsoft let an engineer spend 2 weeks to try to help you I think is big step in the right direction IMHO

                I work for one of the largest corporations on the planet, so we have some pull with vendors. I realize not everyone is so fortunate to have this level of access which is why I am sharing. It is worth noting though that even with this access, most of what I am getting back from MS is pretty much educated guesses.

                Assuming your graphics card supports it, would a 360Hz monitor be even better?

                I didn't know such a monitor existed, I suppose it would make sense that if the issue is vertical blank locking and the higher the refresh rate the lesser the symptoms, a 360Hz monitor would be better, but I am not touching my current setup. My mantra with this disability has always been when you have a setup that works for you, don't ever, ever change it.

                Also curious if you're going to give Windows 11 a try.

                I will be since at some point corporate will move me to it regardless. For my home PC I ill never be moving beyond Windows 7, ever.

                Thanks for this. You've convinced me to get a high refresh monitor. I'd love to try the new Macs, so if I get any improvement on Windows 10 & 11 I'd try it in combination with an M1 mac as well.

                Just make sure to buy one you can return if it doesn't work. As someone who has literally spent over $25,000 over my life on everything I thought could help me, I have a very special focus on making sure we are not taken advantage of financially. Lord knows I've been swindled and lied to enough for all of us.

                it would be interesting to know what intervals/timing is used. By the sounds of things it must be a multiple of 144hz being used, or very close?

                I can see if I can find out, from the description it is a "discrete interval" related to refresh rate, so it could be a fixed timing that is the divided into the refresh rate of the monitor to determine when a screen update is drawn. Who knows

                  ensete if a one off patch just for me could be developed for Windows 10 which would basically revert the Windows 10 display subsytem to work like Windows 7

                  While reverting the display subsystem to work like Windows 7 may be an impossible ask. I think potentially asking about differences between "suspected good" and "bad" Windows 10 builds (i.e 1511 versus 1607) may be a more fruitful line of inquiry.

                  @ensete Did you have to install the ICC color profile for the monitor for it to be "usable"? I recall in your previous posts, this has helped you.

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