Edit: After roughly 2 weeks, for no reason I can find, this solution has failed for me and my symptoms returned. I am now back to patching daily to be able to use Windows 10 My employer has a master level service agreement with Microsoft which allows me to speak directly with senior level accommodation agents and the coders/engineers who develop the Windows OS. I have been on several Zoom calls with them. I won't go into all the details verbatim, but one engineer came up with a hypothesis as to why Windows 10 is unusable for me vs Windows 7 causing me zero discomfort. In short, his hypothesis was something Windows 10 does called Vertical Blank Locking. This is a feature of DWM where Windows only displays updates on the monitor at discrete intervals, tied to the refresh rate of the monitor. This is at the pixel level so you can't actually see it, but it is happening. In Windows 7 in Classic Mode, Vertical Blank Locking is bypassed and screen contents are rendered directly to the screen. In Windows 10, you cannot disable it. He suggested trying a 144Hz Refresh Rate monitor to reduce the Vertical Blank Lock delay, so I purchased one, and after an adjustment period of 3 days, it is causing significantly less symptoms than other monitors, enough so that I can work for the screen for several hours vs mere minutes before. He mentioned that this has absolutely nothing at all to do with "flicker" in the monitor itself (I asked), a "flicker free" 60Hz monitor will still have a longer Vertical Blank Lock delay than a "flickering" monitor running at 120Hz and would still cause symptoms. According to the engineer Windows 11 has had significant work done in DWM to improve Vertical Blank Lock performance (he was on the team that worked on it). I have not tried much of Win11 but it may not present the same issue.

ensete Wow, this is great! Hoping you can build up a tolerance to go even longer! Thanks for updating us. Out of curiosity, would this be picked up on a capture card? I'm unsure how a capture card would work with this Vertical Blank Lock. From our Windows 11 thread, it seems Windows 11 is either the same or better than Windows 10 (for our issue), so it seems Windows 11 seems more promising. I couldn't find anything on Google for "Vertical Blank Lock", so I guess this is purely internal to MS. The reason I am curious is I am wondering if Apple/Linux distros use a similar technique (probably called something else).

ensete By any chance, did the engineer tell you what version of Windows 10 the Vertical Blank Lock was introduced or was it always there? There are some reports here of the really old Windows 10 versions being more usable

ryans He did not, only that is was a core part of the display subsytem in Windows 10 and could not be bypassed or removed.

ensete Thank you very much for sharing this, glad you seem to have found a solution that reduces symptoms. If happen to have a MacOS device as well, would you mind testing it with the 144Hz monitor as well? I'd be curious to see if Apple does anything like Vertical Blank Locking, + if the monitor would reduce symptoms in a similar way.

ensete My employer has a master level service agreement with Microsoft which allows me to speak directly with senior level accommodation agents and the coders/engineers who develop the Windows OS I won't go into all the details verbatim, but one engineer came up with a hypothesis as to why Windows 10 is unusable for me vs Windows 7 causing me zero discomfort Now we're potentially getting somewhere. I think part of the key working with engineers/project managers at big tech companies is having a technical hypothesis with a "cause and effect" relationship along with known working good/bad setups that could be quantified and investigated by quality assurance type departments, rather than just "my eyes hurt", which is where all the usual advice about blue light, flickers and other platitudes from those in power disperse. As @ryans has said, technologies like screen readers do exist for completely blind people and those are supported by "big tech companies" often with known bug trackers and QA of its own. ryans I couldn't find anything on Google for "Vertical Blank Lock", so I guess this is purely internal to MS. The reason I am curious is I am wondering if Apple/Linux distros use a similar technique (probably called something else). My guess is that it's either an internal name for "vertical sync" or related to it. Lack of vertical sync (aka VSync) causes screen tearing which some people have equated to being an eyestrain trigger though...

JTL Furthermore, on reflection from memory. I remember the Windows Aero themes on older versions of Windows also used VSync (and Classic theme did not), and I don't recall many people have problems with that. @ensete Not raining on your parade, just sharing what I know.

ensete Sounds great. Would you share which monitor you got? I think in a way, this indeed is a sort of flicker. The refresh could interfere with other flicker types, making the overall frequency so low that it is painful (even on pixel level). Would be great if you could test it also with some apple. But if you share what you bought, Ill buy it with return period and test is on my mac.

ensete Are you still doing the patching? Or this 144Hz monitor eliminates the need for patching? Is Windows 7 still better than Windows 10 with 144Hz monitor?

This is excellent news. I was wondering what other technologies were being used other than the traditional forms of flicker. Thank you very much for sharing!!

?? "This is a feature of DWM where Windows only displays updates on the monitor at discrete intervals, tied to the refresh rate of the monitor. This is at the pixel level so you can't actually see it, but it is happening. In Windows 7 in Classic Mode, Vertical Blank Locking is bypassed and screen contents are rendered directly to the screen. In Windows 10, you cannot disable it." Well yeah.. DWN has vsync on, and the discrete intervals are the refresh rate, usually 60 Hz. The Windows 7 Classic mode differs from XP in that 7 has brutal tearing. It cannot be used for videos without tearing. You NEED vsync for videos. Though it's been a long time and I haven't tested to see if overlay in 7 Classic theme avoids the tearing in videos or if it is also susceptible. Good that they worked on vsync, because Chrome has problems with vsync lag in Windows. The advice to use a 144 Hz monitor is not bad, but a 120 Hz monitor is better IMO. Why? Because for video the integer multiple is evenly divisible. 24, 30, 60 Hz all divide neatly. With 144 only 24 does. Though, 60, 120 etc. would have the ability to beat in time with AC power, 144 would be offset from that, so it would be better in an environment still using magnetic ballast fluorescents.. You are still using vsync in Windows 7 if you're in the Aero theme.

Feedback from Microsoft OS engineers and something that is helping me

JTL

ryans I agree we can't expect them to make custom patches for us.

I mean, it took a lot of "kicking and screaming" along with ~~bribe money~~ enough license revenue from the embedded device industry (think ATMs, hotel kiosks, etc) to produce builds of XP with security patches after its end of life. Can't really match that given the relative rareness of "our" issue.

What I don't think is entirely unreasonable is if we can demonstrate a consistent "cause and effect" relationship between a particular function and its impact on eyestrain that can be changed in code, perhaps certain accessibility toggles could be added. I think at a minimum we NEED to have some of our empirical research in hand to avoid sending certain engineers and project managers in a "needle in a haystack" style search which may cause hostility or lack of interest solving this.

ryans , it would be awesome to get as many details as you can on what this Vertical Blank Lock is. I'd love to see it on a capture card.

Another idea I had is while "modern" Windows probably isn't doing anything causing screen flicker by itself, a potential avenue of investigation is attempt to render the same scene by the Windows desktop/DWM on a "good" and "bad" setup and differentiate the frames between the two files.

diop

ensete The engineer said it was not a "flicker", it was an intentional drawing of the screen at discreet intervals. When I think of a "flicker", to me that means a change in the backlight at a certain frequency. This is not that. this is windows saying "OK I'll draw 1/2 the screen now, then I will wait a specific time period (tied to the refresh rate of the monitor), then draw the other half of the screen, then wait that time period, then draw the other half of the screen" on and on.

This reminds me of interlace flicker you would see on older games consoles such as the PS1. Interlacing is alternate lines being drawn which is essentially flicker, but afaik the old CRT sets made it easier on the eyes.

it would be interesting to know what intervals/timing is used. By the sounds of things it must be a multiple of 144hz being used, or very close?

This is great news, next time I upgrade I will try a 144hz monitor.

reaganry

diop still happy after a year+ with my LG 144hz with limited RGB/blacks.

ensete

I'm so glad!! Are you able to share what PC model and Windows OS build you use?

It's an HP desktop with an nVidia graphics card I put in, I don't know the Wkn 10 version offhand, I can check tomm.

If you ever talk to the engineer again, it would be awesome to get as many details as you can on what this Vertical Blank Lock is. I'd love to see it on a capture card.

I can ask for more details but he is not an easy person t get time with. I will work with my MS Support contact and see if I can get some more meetings.

The fact Microsoft let an engineer spend 2 weeks to try to help you I think is big step in the right direction IMHO

I work for one of the largest corporations on the planet, so we have some pull with vendors. I realize not everyone is so fortunate to have this level of access which is why I am sharing. It is worth noting though that even with this access, most of what I am getting back from MS is pretty much educated guesses.

Assuming your graphics card supports it, would a 360Hz monitor be even better?

I didn't know such a monitor existed, I suppose it would make sense that if the issue is vertical blank locking and the higher the refresh rate the lesser the symptoms, a 360Hz monitor would be better, but I am not touching my current setup. My mantra with this disability has always been when you have a setup that works for you, don't ever, ever change it.

Also curious if you're going to give Windows 11 a try.

I will be since at some point corporate will move me to it regardless. For my home PC I ill never be moving beyond Windows 7, ever.

Thanks for this. You've convinced me to get a high refresh monitor. I'd love to try the new Macs, so if I get any improvement on Windows 10 & 11 I'd try it in combination with an M1 mac as well.

Just make sure to buy one you can return if it doesn't work. As someone who has literally spent over $25,000 over my life on everything I thought could help me, I have a very special focus on making sure we are not taken advantage of financially. Lord knows I've been swindled and lied to enough for all of us.

it would be interesting to know what intervals/timing is used. By the sounds of things it must be a multiple of 144hz being used, or very close?

I can see if I can find out, from the description it is a "discrete interval" related to refresh rate, so it could be a fixed timing that is the divided into the refresh rate of the monitor to determine when a screen update is drawn. Who knows

Oshim

ensete I will be since at some point corporate will move me to it regardless. For my home PC I ill never be moving beyond Windows 7, ever.

Hi there! This Win 7 thing was my mantra back in 2019 right before upgrading to a new CPU, Mobo etc. But then I was told another thing to consider.
Win 10 (and now 11) has the best support for new CPUs and GPUs and other respective parts (like NVME drives). Staying with Win 7 moving on in time would be limiting your own self or at least limiting the efficiency coefficient of your computer parts thus degrading performance.

Have you given this a thought?

JTL

ensete if a one off patch just for me could be developed for Windows 10 which would basically revert the Windows 10 display subsytem to work like Windows 7

While reverting the display subsystem to work like Windows 7 may be an impossible ask. I think potentially asking about differences between "suspected good" and "bad" Windows 10 builds (i.e 1511 versus 1607) may be a more fruitful line of inquiry.

Oshim

reaganry still happy after a year+ with my LG 144hz with limited RGB/blacks.

Hi Reaganry, what model is that?

ryans

@ensete Did you have to install the ICC color profile for the monitor for it to be "usable"? I recall in your previous posts, this has helped you.

ensete

ryans I did install the ICC profile. I did not notice a difference

Worth mentioning that installing an ICC profile only ever helped on Windows 7, not 10

Are you able to use the Dell S2421HGF for an entire day (10-12hrs) without any eye strain/brain fog/headache?

Most of the day. I still take breaks. Although some bad news, the effect seems to be waning and the monitor seems to be causing more focusing strain today. No idea why

Deepak

@ensete
Are you able to use the Dell S2421HGF for an entire day (10-12hrs) without any eye strain/brain fog/headache?

How is the backlight of this screen?
I have a VA monitor 32GK650, and there is a piercing vibrant brilliance to the display and I get my eyes sore from it pretty quickly.
I found the same piercing light quality on the 4k LG 27UK650 IPS and other recent IPS displays.
However the laptop Dell XPS 13 9350 and Asus G752VT 17.3" I use regularly has a much "flatter, more 2d, milder, softer" looking backlight and I think that may be a big factor in why I can use that for a whole day with no issue.

Business-Eyes

So I bought a 144hz gaming monitor with gsync about a week ago and it seem to help alot, was having eyestrain suddenly from a PC I have been using for years, I think there was a windows update or something, but since getting the monitor it helped alot.

Business-Eyes

ensete try making the lighting more uniformed in you work space, I noticed that in the morning my eye strain more because it's darker but when the sun comes out and my room has more of a uniformed lighting it gets better

ensete

Oshim No level of computing "efficiency coefficient" (??) is worth being in pain over. Win 7 will be all I ever use. I know people still rocking WinXP to this day. A computer is a tool not a statement of ones tech elitism.

Thanks for sharing. It is great that you found a fix and, especially, an explanation for the fix

Unfortunately all of a sudden, this solution ha failed for me and my symptoms are right back to where they were, with no explanation

reaganry

Oshim 24gl600f

AGI

ensete Thanks for sharing. It is great that you found a fix and, especially, an explanation for the fix. And it is fantastic that you brought up your / our issues to Microsoft's high spheres. May this be the beginning of something! My laptop has become unusable after an update last week. I can't take it anymore. I really look forward to a "permanent" solution.

ryans Assuming your graphics card supports it, would a 360Hz monitor be even better?

Is it correct that the settings above say that I cannot increase the refresh rate of the laptop display, but do not imply that I can't use a 144 Hz or 360 Hz external display?

Where do I find the maximum refresh rate allowed by the graphics card? I cannot find it here.

Also, my laptop has two graphics card. It seems that the one used for the display is Intel UHD Graphics by default. Can that be changed and what are the downsides? Thanks in advance for any help!

ryans

ensete Unfortunately all of a sudden, this solution ha failed for me and my symptoms are right back to where they were, with no explanation

Bummer! Sorry to hear that. Did Windows or a graphics driver update (maybe it's not driving at 144Hz). Or a lighting change in the office?

Wonder if the 360Hz monitor is worth a try?

Is the eyepatch a "fallback" solution?

Will you try to get in touch with the Engineer to see if any other theories could cause this?

I wonder if this is a brain adaptation thing. I seem to recall you had Irlen lenses which helped, then stopped helping. A perhaps similar thing occurs with prism glasses -- patients may "eat" the prism and require stronger ones over time.

AGI

ensete Unfortunately all of a sudden, this solution ha failed for me and my symptoms are right back to where they were, with no explanation

Sorry to hear that, but, to be honest, I am not surprised. 14 months ago I changed job and I was given a W10 laptop. I thought I would not make it. For a few days I had spasms not only in my eyelids but even my triceps and low back, not to mention the eye and neck strain. The symptoms slowly subsided. The eye and neck strain went on for a while longer, but after a month I had almost no issues. Now the very same laptop has become horrible after a BIOS update. At Windows level everything is the same as before. The display refresh rate has always been 60 Hz, so I do not think the refresh rate is my problem. In the past I used multiple PCs on W10 without major problems. I am quite sure the monitors were run at a refresh rate of 60 Hz. I am not saying that 144 Hz or 360 Hz would not help. I doubt that is the answer to my disability.

I still think that talking to someone who develops Windows is a super added value.

ryans I wonder if this is a brain adaptation thing.

As I said before, somehow my eyes adjusted to my W10 laptop a year ago, as they had adjusted to my Oukitel phone two years ago. I have been running all possible updates on the phone for two years without experiencing any difference. In both cases I do not recall a precise moment when the device became usable. It was a very gradual process.

On the other hand, in the past I worked for three years on a PC and a laptop, both on W7, which gave me constant issues. The only improvement over months was that I could manage the symptoms better at the end of the day. There was another shared computer, nominally the same as mine and using the same model of monitor, which was very gentle on my eyes instead. I figured out when I was about to leave that there was at least one difference between that computer and my PC. The graphics card.

Further on brain adaptation, as I posted elsewhere, my orthoptist had suggested stopping with loose prism exercises for 6 months. I just resumed exercising and I can confirm that I have not maintained what I had learnt. I cannot carry out the exercises anymore using a high power prism.

Oshim

Hello everyone!

Found something on the topic of Vertical Blanking… if we have a science guy here, maybe this can be explained as it means squat to me ☹️

Here is the link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/computer-science/vertical-blanking

On a side note, has anyone tested if they feel better on Win 11 vs. the same display on Win 10…? I for one can upgrade immediately, but I am wondering if the whole exercise is worth it?
Personally, I don't plan on returning to Win 7 and this "solution" is not viable for me.

Nickx

Oshim

Relatively new here but I have been reading up some of the suggestions posted by different members of the community.

So I have ordered multiple monitors both 8bit +144hz and (8bit +FRC) 144hz to test out with windows 11 machine. So far from my early testing I can say windows 11 is little easier on the eyes. Best way to describe is W10 gives me the cluster migraine that starts building up around my forehead while W11 is slow build up of dry eyes.

I will make another post soon of my different testing of devices, right now I am testing Mac Mini M1, MacBook Pro 14 M1 Pro and couple of surface laptops one with intel chip and other one Ryzen. I have also bought multiple monitors. Fingers crossed 🤞🏼

Oshim

Nickx

Wow, great news and great approach @Nickx ! I really like the idea of variety that you are going for!

I would take dry eyes any day of the week compared to a deep brain discomfort/pain. I use artificial tears eye drops so I think I can live with dryness and moisturizing from time to time (1 to 3 times daily).

I will give Win11 a try tonight with my Win10 build backed up on a hard drive ready to be restored.

AGI

Nickx (8bit +FRC) 144hz

Hi, can you (or anyone else) please elaborate on 8 bit + FRC? I assume FRC stands for Frame Rate Control as described here. In other posts, I read that one should set the color depth to 8 bit rather than 6 bit. Why would you add FRC to 8 bit? And by the way, how do you add or remove FRC from the equation? Via a dedicated software? Thanks!

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