Hi!

I've been reading and posting this forum for several years.

My problem has always been PWM and flickering.

My eyes get bloodshot within 15 minutes of OLED screens. Over the years I have been able to use several displays (phones, laptos, televisions and LCD displays) without problembs.

But suddenly, since the war in Ukraine started I was really overdoing it with my phone, browsing twitter and the news on top of a typical workday, I suddenly realized that my eyes are really dry and bloodshot constantly. I have been able to limit my phone use to only a few checks here and there during the day and I've tried to limit my display use, especially on the weekends. But my yes do not seem to recover, or then there is some change in my windows 11 machine or my phone.

I checked both and there does not seem to be any updates that would affect the screen behavior, so I'm really at a loss what is happening. Previously my HP screen has been such that I have been able to use it for 12h a day, then keep using it during the evening for gaming or web browsing. Any offending devices with PWM or temporal dithering, I always have recovered within a day. E.g. after using the new laptop or phone for a day, in the morning my eyes are irritated and dry. But now suddenly these devices that have not caused any irritation, no matter how much I have used them, seem to cause severe irritation.

I also went to an eye clinic and they did IPL treatment and Infrared LED treatment to warm and stimulate to meibom glands to remedy any dry eye problem. But after doing this 2x, it does not help at all.

Yes, my eyes do feel like they get dry, but the actual source of the problem has always been PWM and if I stop using a device with PWM, I'm fine the next day. But now even a few days with limited or no use, my eyes are still dry and red and irritated, and watching even my trusty HP display get my eyes dry and burning.

Has anyone else noticed within the past month any update in windows 11 that seems to cause similar issues?

I have had this problem for 30 years and always I have recovered from any irritation by just stopping the use of the device. I have also have had periods where I have used my phone or display really too many hours a day, like even 18 hours, but with these current devices I have, they have not caused any irritation at all. Now there is no change in anything that I know of but my eyes are just burning.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

    Unfortunately, I don't have any advice or solution for you, but your experiences sound awfully similar to mine and I hope that telling some of my details can help narrow down the issue. I got my first issues in 2010, which was the time when my issues have been the worst, because I was bedridden for roughly a year because of it, but by the end of 2012 I bought a BenQ Eyecare monitor which worked for me flawlessly until near the end of 2019 when my issues returned in full swing - not that I didn't have issues during those seven "good" years, because most bad monitors outside from home caused me issues, but over three years after I experienced these issues for the first item, my eyes recuperated to such a degree that I could use two Samsung Galaxy OLED phones (Note 2 and S8) and an old HP 530 notebook from 2007 alongside my BenQ monitor without any issue and I thought I had this problem under control.

    So around September 2019, my BenQ monitor started to cause me irritations and to this day one of my suspicions is that I had to use it quite extensively the months prior, because I was finally about to complete my bachelor's degree (the previous one I had to abort, because of my issues in 2010) and played video games before I went to sleep for an hour or two. My other suspicion is that I slept on an air mattress that has been causing me terrible back issues from which I haven't fully recovered. Since then, I had no success using any backlit monitor ever again even when I abstained from testing them for multiple months, because just like you, when my eyes were still somewhat okay and I got exposed to a bad device, I could sleep over it and be fine the next day, but now I have to wait for one or two weeks until my dry eyes and occasional migraines disappear again after exposure.

    What I want to say is that you suspect that an OS update may be the culprit and of course I don't want to question that as it very well could be (I never checked if there was an Windows 10 update in the summer of 2019, because I wasn't aware of OS updates being critical to eye issues before I found this forum and I was primarily using Linux Mint which updates more regularly and therefore is harder to pinpoint which update it could be).
    But what baffles me how a software change can affect PWM-sensitive eyes in such a way that someone can't even use previous save devices again or if something else is at play here (like too much exposure after a prolonged time) or a combination of both. It would really be interesting to know.

    • AGI replied to this.

      Yes. Windows 11 update rolled out on Feb 2022 ( KB5010414 ) causing me sever eyestrain on HP victus laptop. Fortunately I have taken backup of the system image around January time. I have restored the laptop with that image and disabled all updates for now. System with the old image (Updates till Jan 2022 ) is great for me. As soon as I update the windows, screen become unusable even for 30 minutes straight. I have backup the image in at least 4 devices now just for safety. 😀

      • AGI replied to this.

        Maxx Sorry to hear that. I am in a similar situation. I had found a decent setup on my Windows 10 machine after initial horrible symptoms (spasms even in my arms and low back) when a month ago some updates were sneakily passed through by HP Support Assistant. I have been updating drivers and playing around for a month, but no solution so far and, as always, no clear idea on what caused what. My eyes and neck hurt just by looking at the screen. It is not the reading that has become strenuous. Very, very depressing.

        seeker_of_no_light Were you diagnosed with anything, if you do not mind me asking?

        karthi3219 Windows 11 update rolled out on Feb 2022 ( KB5010414 ) causing me sever eyestrain

        That is horrible to hear, as I had some little hope that Windows 11 was a true game changer after reading some positive reviews on this forum.

                AGI Exactly similar symptoms as yours. Neck pain, Spasms in low back and little pain in bottom shoulder plate. Once you found a working setup, remove the hard disk and take a clone of the hard disk as backups. That way in future if any updates are causing issues, you can use the backups to revert back.

                • AGI replied to this.

                    Maxx

                    Back in 2014 I was overdoing my screen usage, it took nine long months to recover. So find devices that works for you and give it some time.

                      AGI I was never diagnosed with anything. I only had one wrong diagnosis from the first eye doctor I went to who prescribed me glasses. Not only were these glasses made from a rather faulty way of testing my eyes as I found out later when I went to other eye doctors, but obviously the glasses didn't help to protect me from PWM and flickering and it just felt worse. 12 years later from the onset of my issues I still see as sharp as back then (and am still angered after all these years that I spend a good amount on having good glasses made). Back when my issues were at their worst, I went to roughly another dozen eye doctors within one year and basically all of them subtly told me that I was pretending or imagining things and as a result never went to any eye specialist ever again as it was just a waste of time. It took over two years from the onset of my issues until I stumbled upon the information that PWM/flickering was what was primarily causing me problems. However, over the previous two years, I have played with the idea of going to an optometrist one day when time permits.

                      • AGI replied to this.
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                          seeker_of_no_light all of them subtly told me that I was pretending or imagining things and as a result never went to any eye specialist ever again as it was just a waste of time.

                          I totally understand you. I experienced the same. One doctor told me to take it easy and relax. None of the specialists I talked to had heard of dithering, PWM, etc.

                          karthi3219 Thanks for the tip. What do you mean with a clone? You mean you create a Windows Restore Point? If so, the problem I recently experienced is that the system keeps only three, sometimes two restore points and, if an update is unwillingly passed through, the last restore point of the list disappears. Also, in my current case issues started after a BIOS update. After numerous attempts to restore the BIOS to default, HP customer care told me that in some devices the BIOS can only be further updated, and a return to factory default (as the system was shipped) is not possible. It could be that other updates ran through and the BIOS one is the only update that I clearly witnessed when I rebooted. I spent a lot of time trying to understand what happened but the manufacturer is not truly interested in listening. The only help they provide consists of randomly updating / upgrading everything (generally causing confusion as further multiple changes are being made to the system).

                                I've not had any diagonis. Also been to dozens of doctors and opticians. None have ever heard of PWM and most seem to be incapable, even the PhD's to understand the concept of flickering light, if it is above 100Hz.

                                @karthi3219 thanks for the info. Though they do not seem to list anything in the change log that would affect this.

                                Well, I have to test on my trusty lenovo X280 laptop if that is better for my eyes no. My Sony TV which does not have flickering, does not seem to bother me, so in that sense I think it is not my eyes, it is some change that happened. There is a Play store update in my Phone, so maybe Google updated something on the phone as well. Because it is really strange that suddenly 2 devices that I have used extensivitly for years or in the case of the phone, one year, they would suddenly start producing eye strain.

                                I have no neck or spasm issues at all. No migraines or headaches. (I do have the about once a year migraine, but that can happen on holiday or during the night or at the golf course, so no connection to displays.)

                                Have you tried any Linux distribution (Ubuntu, Linux Mint MATE)?

                                Maxx My problem has always been PWM and flickering.

                                You believe that is your problem. It may not be. I always suggest people take caution before deciding they know what the actual underlying issue is. It might be PWM and flickering, it might be something completely different that you associate with PWM and flickering.

                                You need to be results oriented, find a setup that works for you, an then never, ever change it.

                                    Maxx Has anyone else noticed within the past month any update in windows 11 that seems to cause similar issues?

                                    I can confirm from discussions with Microsoft engineers that DWM has been heavily modified between Windows 10 and Windows 11. So if you see difference even with the same hardware and same drivers, it's because the OS is actually handling the display differently. And it is under active development so updates can continue to change it.

                                    I would advise you to go back to windows 7 where you can enable the "Classic Theme" which disables DWM completely and eliminates all visual issues caused by it.

                                    But suddenly, since the war in Ukraine started I was really overdoing it with my phone, browsing twitter and the news on top of a typical workday

                                    You should stop using social media period, besides just being incredibly toxic and terrible for your mental health, it is literally engineered to be addictive and to force you to stare at screens as much as possible, which is not something folks with out condition should be doing to thier eyes. I understand going screenless is nearly impossible in todays world but you can easily delete all your social media accounts and use screens as little as you have to.

                                      AGI What do you mean with a clone? You mean you create a Windows Restore Point?

                                      Windows restore point won't help. You have to take the image of complete hard drive for backup.

                                      We have 2 option here.

                                      Option 1: ( Easiest )

                                      Windows 11 have the option to take the backup of entire system as system image and store the image in an external drive. Later using the recovery disk you can restore the system back to old version. Once you restored the old copy, turn off all the updates immediately.

                                      Check the sections Image backup & Recovering image backups in the below URL.

                                      https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/windows-11-backup-how-to-back-up-windows-11/

                                      Option 2: ( Hardest )

                                      Remove your hard drive from laptop. Use any hard drive to USB adaptor and plug the USB into another laptop. Take complete image of the hard drive into another drive using any cloning software. Now you have backup of the hard drive as image. whenever required, you can write this backup to your hard drive.

                                      I am following Option 1. Thankfully I took backup around January. This backup is strain free for me. I always turn off all updates. Sometimes updates do happen and I start getting eyestrain. Then I will restore the system to old image and the cycle continues. 🙂

                                      • AGI replied to this.
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                                          karthi3219 I see, thanks a lot for detailing the backup procedures. I will follow them once I move to Windows 11. Have you notified Microsoft of your issues post-update? Could you pinpoint what the update was?

                                              AGI Could you pinpoint what the update was?

                                              I am not sure whom to report to. I have attached the screenshot of the update pending in my system. This is causing me eyestrain after the update. So I am keep disabling the updates after every restart. Sometimes it is getting updated automatically. Then I have to revert the backup to old one.

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                                                  ensete

                                                  Well, during the past 30 years, I confirmed over and over again that my eyes are completely fine, if I don't look at screens that flicker.

                                                  Like I said, I have been able to use displays that do not flicker without any problems. Any time I try an OLED phone or a display that has PWM, my eyes get irritated.

                                                  I also have done numerous tests with displays that have no PWM at 100 brightness, but have PWM at 99% brightness. Have had my wife change the brightness between 99 and 100. Every time I can tell and she can see my eyes getting red if the brightness is 99.

                                                  Now this current situation is very strange though since I don't seem to have any device that would be OK, though no hardware changes were made. Only the excessive use for a short period, which I've also done several times during the past without issues. It's like my eyes or nervous system some how got sensitized to any display device.

                                                  • AGI likes this.

                                                    karthi3219 Thanks. Who knows what is included in that update. The word "cumulative" worries me and it could be more than security updates.

                                                    In the past I never had issues after installing the security patches passed along by my IT admin. I am quite sure that the screen became harsh following January 2022's BIOS update, which sneaked through via HP proprietary software. I now removed that software for good, but…too late.

                                                    I wonder why / how a BIOS update can affect the display. Any idea?

                                                      I can confirm that it is not the Windows 11 version. I have used now 2 different Win 10 and Linux, Raspberry PI machines and my eyes get strained exactly the same.

                                                      It seems that I have some situation with my eyes that they got extremely strained duo to excessive Twitter browsing and now they do not seem to recover. I felt better after not using any device for 2 days, but then when I used my phone which previously was fine, for 30 minutes, my eyes got strained as if it would be a PWM device.

                                                      16 days later

                                                      I went to the eye doctor today. I got the eye drops that paralyze the eye so that the eye can be examined.

                                                      What a relief that was. My red eyes resolved soon after my pupils were dilated. The sense of relief lasted as long as my pupils were dilated. Then when I had to use the computer afterward, my eyes were red again.

                                                      Now I'm testing this Onyx Boox Mira. Not a good experience really and if I'm able to get used to work with this, I'm not sure if this will resolve the red eyes. I kinda suspect that my eyes have somehow sensitized to focusing to near distances altogether.

                                                      Previously it has been the PWM (for 30 years). 2 months ago, my eyes or nervous system seemed to get fried after period of heavy use and some offending PWM screens. Even several days without any screens will not help. Half a day of computer usage (previously OK devices) gets my eyes bloodshot.

                                                      I have been experimenting blocing my non dominant eye and it seems to help, but I have to test for several days to be sure. And in Teams video, I cannot really be blocking my eye, as this would raise too many questions. Nowadays many people and customer want to have video enabled.

                                                      A really weird situation, I hope it somehow resolves when I use this Mira and block the other eye when ever I have the chance.

                                                      Eye doctor again was one of those who had not had a single patient in 10 years with the same issue.

                                                      He noted that my eyes are dry and prescribed lubricating drops.

                                                      One thing I have found just a week ago, is that Antihistamine drops help a bit and when my eyes are really red and irritated after a workday, the allergy drops help a bit, but of course they only mitigate the inflammation that is caused by they actual problem.

                                                      I do not think this is a windows or device issue anymore, this is an issue with my optic nerves struggling to focus at near distances. I should still try this Mira and also try to read a book in natural light to see if my eyes get similarly irritated by just reading a book. I hope not. Then I would end up a cyclop.

                                                      I tried to ask the doctor to prescribe the paralyzing drops, so I could at least test the hypothesis, that my pupils are getting strained by the attempt to focus when looking at screens. but of course, doctors can rarely think outside the box. If it is not in the book, then they have no solution.

                                                      This is really an emergency as I cannot even watch the television in the evenings, much less use a phone. Still I wonder why even TV that is 4 meters away is irritating, since that should be sufficiently far away.

                                                      Luckily I do not get any headaches or migraines, it is the dry, red stinging eyes after a workday. No lubricating drops help at all.

                                                      Isn't it just weird how the nervous system can just out of the blue at some day kinda resign itself and start having problems and cannot recover?

                                                      I was hoping that if I could apply the paralyzing drops every night, my pupils could somehow really recuperate and then would be able to withstand a day of computer. But of course, the doctor was not willing to even discuss it further. It was such a relief and my eyes were white the first time in weeks.

                                                      I'm visiting a neurologist tho specializes in eye-related issues on Friday, so let's hope he has had similar patients. Maybe there would be some drug to calm the nervous system or something.

                                                      I'm also thinking of pursuing the paralyzing eye drop solution still - at least it would be helpful when my eyes are totally fried, to take the redness and the irritation away. Could those drops be diluted adequately that they would not actually totally paralyze the pupil, just calm it down a bit, maybe worsen the sight a bit, but so that I would still be able to work

                                                      • mike replied to this.
                                                        7 days later

                                                        patanol/Olopatadine/pataday is amazing for burning eyes. i think there are a few other newer options too.

                                                        dev