Maxx My problem has always been PWM and flickering.

You believe that is your problem. It may not be. I always suggest people take caution before deciding they know what the actual underlying issue is. It might be PWM and flickering, it might be something completely different that you associate with PWM and flickering.

You need to be results oriented, find a setup that works for you, an then never, ever change it.

    Maxx Has anyone else noticed within the past month any update in windows 11 that seems to cause similar issues?

    I can confirm from discussions with Microsoft engineers that DWM has been heavily modified between Windows 10 and Windows 11. So if you see difference even with the same hardware and same drivers, it's because the OS is actually handling the display differently. And it is under active development so updates can continue to change it.

    I would advise you to go back to windows 7 where you can enable the "Classic Theme" which disables DWM completely and eliminates all visual issues caused by it.

    But suddenly, since the war in Ukraine started I was really overdoing it with my phone, browsing twitter and the news on top of a typical workday

    You should stop using social media period, besides just being incredibly toxic and terrible for your mental health, it is literally engineered to be addictive and to force you to stare at screens as much as possible, which is not something folks with out condition should be doing to thier eyes. I understand going screenless is nearly impossible in todays world but you can easily delete all your social media accounts and use screens as little as you have to.

    AGI What do you mean with a clone? You mean you create a Windows Restore Point?

    Windows restore point won't help. You have to take the image of complete hard drive for backup.

    We have 2 option here.

    Option 1: ( Easiest )

    Windows 11 have the option to take the backup of entire system as system image and store the image in an external drive. Later using the recovery disk you can restore the system back to old version. Once you restored the old copy, turn off all the updates immediately.

    Check the sections Image backup & Recovering image backups in the below URL.

    https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/windows-11-backup-how-to-back-up-windows-11/

    Option 2: ( Hardest )

    Remove your hard drive from laptop. Use any hard drive to USB adaptor and plug the USB into another laptop. Take complete image of the hard drive into another drive using any cloning software. Now you have backup of the hard drive as image. whenever required, you can write this backup to your hard drive.

    I am following Option 1. Thankfully I took backup around January. This backup is strain free for me. I always turn off all updates. Sometimes updates do happen and I start getting eyestrain. Then I will restore the system to old image and the cycle continues. 🙂

    • AGI replied to this.
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      karthi3219 I see, thanks a lot for detailing the backup procedures. I will follow them once I move to Windows 11. Have you notified Microsoft of your issues post-update? Could you pinpoint what the update was?

        AGI Could you pinpoint what the update was?

        I am not sure whom to report to. I have attached the screenshot of the update pending in my system. This is causing me eyestrain after the update. So I am keep disabling the updates after every restart. Sometimes it is getting updated automatically. Then I have to revert the backup to old one.

        • AGI replied to this.
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          ensete

          Well, during the past 30 years, I confirmed over and over again that my eyes are completely fine, if I don't look at screens that flicker.

          Like I said, I have been able to use displays that do not flicker without any problems. Any time I try an OLED phone or a display that has PWM, my eyes get irritated.

          I also have done numerous tests with displays that have no PWM at 100 brightness, but have PWM at 99% brightness. Have had my wife change the brightness between 99 and 100. Every time I can tell and she can see my eyes getting red if the brightness is 99.

          Now this current situation is very strange though since I don't seem to have any device that would be OK, though no hardware changes were made. Only the excessive use for a short period, which I've also done several times during the past without issues. It's like my eyes or nervous system some how got sensitized to any display device.

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          karthi3219 Thanks. Who knows what is included in that update. The word "cumulative" worries me and it could be more than security updates.

          In the past I never had issues after installing the security patches passed along by my IT admin. I am quite sure that the screen became harsh following January 2022's BIOS update, which sneaked through via HP proprietary software. I now removed that software for good, but…too late.

          I wonder why / how a BIOS update can affect the display. Any idea?

          I can confirm that it is not the Windows 11 version. I have used now 2 different Win 10 and Linux, Raspberry PI machines and my eyes get strained exactly the same.

          It seems that I have some situation with my eyes that they got extremely strained duo to excessive Twitter browsing and now they do not seem to recover. I felt better after not using any device for 2 days, but then when I used my phone which previously was fine, for 30 minutes, my eyes got strained as if it would be a PWM device.

          16 days later

          I went to the eye doctor today. I got the eye drops that paralyze the eye so that the eye can be examined.

          What a relief that was. My red eyes resolved soon after my pupils were dilated. The sense of relief lasted as long as my pupils were dilated. Then when I had to use the computer afterward, my eyes were red again.

          Now I'm testing this Onyx Boox Mira. Not a good experience really and if I'm able to get used to work with this, I'm not sure if this will resolve the red eyes. I kinda suspect that my eyes have somehow sensitized to focusing to near distances altogether.

          Previously it has been the PWM (for 30 years). 2 months ago, my eyes or nervous system seemed to get fried after period of heavy use and some offending PWM screens. Even several days without any screens will not help. Half a day of computer usage (previously OK devices) gets my eyes bloodshot.

          I have been experimenting blocing my non dominant eye and it seems to help, but I have to test for several days to be sure. And in Teams video, I cannot really be blocking my eye, as this would raise too many questions. Nowadays many people and customer want to have video enabled.

          A really weird situation, I hope it somehow resolves when I use this Mira and block the other eye when ever I have the chance.

          Eye doctor again was one of those who had not had a single patient in 10 years with the same issue.

          He noted that my eyes are dry and prescribed lubricating drops.

          One thing I have found just a week ago, is that Antihistamine drops help a bit and when my eyes are really red and irritated after a workday, the allergy drops help a bit, but of course they only mitigate the inflammation that is caused by they actual problem.

          I do not think this is a windows or device issue anymore, this is an issue with my optic nerves struggling to focus at near distances. I should still try this Mira and also try to read a book in natural light to see if my eyes get similarly irritated by just reading a book. I hope not. Then I would end up a cyclop.

          I tried to ask the doctor to prescribe the paralyzing drops, so I could at least test the hypothesis, that my pupils are getting strained by the attempt to focus when looking at screens. but of course, doctors can rarely think outside the box. If it is not in the book, then they have no solution.

          This is really an emergency as I cannot even watch the television in the evenings, much less use a phone. Still I wonder why even TV that is 4 meters away is irritating, since that should be sufficiently far away.

          Luckily I do not get any headaches or migraines, it is the dry, red stinging eyes after a workday. No lubricating drops help at all.

          Isn't it just weird how the nervous system can just out of the blue at some day kinda resign itself and start having problems and cannot recover?

          I was hoping that if I could apply the paralyzing drops every night, my pupils could somehow really recuperate and then would be able to withstand a day of computer. But of course, the doctor was not willing to even discuss it further. It was such a relief and my eyes were white the first time in weeks.

          I'm visiting a neurologist tho specializes in eye-related issues on Friday, so let's hope he has had similar patients. Maybe there would be some drug to calm the nervous system or something.

          I'm also thinking of pursuing the paralyzing eye drop solution still - at least it would be helpful when my eyes are totally fried, to take the redness and the irritation away. Could those drops be diluted adequately that they would not actually totally paralyze the pupil, just calm it down a bit, maybe worsen the sight a bit, but so that I would still be able to work

          • mike replied to this.
            7 days later

            patanol/Olopatadine/pataday is amazing for burning eyes. i think there are a few other newer options too.

            4 days later

            Maxx Then I would end up a cyclop.

            For me training with covering-one-eye have reprogrammed my brain (or what’s needed to be reprogrammed), so today i can use both eyes open looking at screens. For me the training took years, so give it some time and hopefully you will have the same result as me.

              mike Thanks! This is important information. Actually, I have noted that even covering my eye half a day, enables me to use both eyes the rest of the day. But it is always very difficult to know for sure.

              Since the only symptom I get, is red, dry and irritated eyes, I can sometimes use e.g. a new laptop for a day and think it is OK, but then I take a look at the mirror are see that my eyes are bloodshot and watery. So all things that I try, might need several days if not weeks to be sure if it really helps.

              mike you probably already mentioned this in another post, but I can’t seem to find it: did you train with your dominant or non-dominant eye patched ?

              • mike replied to this.

                Non-dominant patched. Mostly because the non-dominant has a corneal injury so I can see as well with it. (No, the injury is unrelated to this problem, problem started 15 years prior to the injury)

                denise_eca

                Non-dominant eye covered from screen and both eyes open looking. I haven’t done any classic pirate-patching.

                  mike you keep your hand in front of your eye the whole time? Or you worked out another system to cover you non-dominant eye without having to hold your hand in front of it for one hour ?

                  • mike replied to this.

                    denise_eca

                    I have a pair of Gunnar gaming glasses, have put a paper over the right glass. So I can see to the sides with both my eyes. But not straight forward with my right non-dominant eye.

                    For short sessions I use my hand to cover, and for longer times the gaming glasses.

                      mike thank you! I’m definitely gonna try that! Fingers crossed it works for me too! 🤞

                      I tried the cycloplegic drops. My pupils were dilated and I could not focus properly to near distances for 36 hours.

                      My eyes where whiter than ever, but it seems that the drops somehow paralyzed the meibom glands, because my eyes felt really dry the whole time. But they were not red, as they would be otherwise.

                      This led me to try something unusual: My eyes have always gotten unusually red when consuming alcohol. I was thinking that this might be somehow related to the display irriataiton problem. I tried this by having a few beers. Lo and behold, my eyes did not get red at all. And I must say, my eyes get really disturbingly red when consuming alcohol, so much so that I get comments "have you been crying" or "Have you taken some drugs" when at the pub or so.

                      Now with the cycloplegic drops, my eyes remained clear.

                      So it seems that there is some sort of problem when focusing to displays, where there is always some flicker, even if PWM free. This same issues seems to be brought out by alcohol as well. So it seems that the eyes are having difficulties focusing or keeping the binocular vision aligned when under the influence of alcohol, which makes the muscles work extra hard, similarly when looking at displays that flicker, which produces the red eyes.

                      Has anyone else noted the same, that the redness or eye pain would be brought by alcohol also?

                      And please, I don't need any comments that "you should not use alcohol period, it is unhealthy" that is not the point here. My point is to understand what it is that causes the eye irritation and what could resolve or mitigate it.

                      My hypothesis remains that it is related to binocular vision and some sort of strabismus which is intensified by flicker and alcohol makes it even more difficult for the nervous system to maintain focus so that the stereo vision works.

                      Maxx
                      I feel you man. OLED really messes with me too. More than any other display. I haven't narrowed down fully why yet, it even goes beyond PWM for me. Maybe it's bad frame persistence or MPRT motion blur, I don't know.

                      Nonetheless, here's what has helped me a lot:

                      First, I highly highly recommend the app "OLED Saver". It allows for controlling the brightness without PWM flicker.

                      Next, though I don't need it as often these days I would recommend Rohto Digi Eye. I've tried many eye drop types/brands, but this is the only one that meaningfully works for me. https://rohtoeyedrops.com/products/rohto-digi-eye-digital-eye-strain-eye-drops

                      Third, try covering non-dominant eye. Even simply closing one eye has helped me in a pinch.

                      If all else fails at least make sure you're not in a dark room. Ambient light always helps me with any backlit display, not just OLED.

                      These things have allowed me to use my OLED phone without feeling like my eyes will explode, at least.

                      • Maxx replied to this.
                        dev