Sick with new LED backlit PC monitors, but not old- difference in backlighting?

Gemsand

I am very excited to have found this forum! Hopefully I’m not alone in the following!

The issue: The LED backlight from modern computer monitors makes me sick. However I have no problem at all with certain older LED backlit monitor models. There are some older monitors I can use for 8+ hours a day without any issue at all (see the “Successful” list below for examples), while most (all?) modern monitors released in the past 5-6 years or less cause me to experience significant symptoms (eye strain, headache, disorientation, general feeling of unease) within only a couple minutes of use (see the ”Side-Effect Causing Monitors” below)! The difference for me between these two "groups" is profound. I am trying to understand the difference better so I can locate a modern monitor that will work for me. In fact, as a computer gamer I have been on quite a quest to locate a gaming monitor that could potentially work!

I have narrowed down the issue to the LED backlighting being the problem because I discovered that certain modern LED desk lamps immediately cause the same symptoms! I also believe it to be LED backlighting related because the side-effects occur even if the monitor is on but receiving no input (is showing a black screen but backlighting is yet active).

I also experienced the same symptoms from an OLED TV (I had thought OLED might be a solution but in fact it was quite unbearable for me). I have found one modern TV that works no problem, a 4K Samsung (UN55TU8000FXZA). This leads me to believe there is some difference in backlighting that I do not yet understand. My current working theory is that modern LEDs produce a wider spectrum of wavelengths (visible and not visible) for the sake of color reproduction, and some wavelength(s) is/are really irritating to my retinas.

Has anyone else experienced something similar? And if so, has anyone found a modern monitor (preferably a gaming monitor) that works? Thank you for ALL thoughts and suggestions!

For reference:

SUCCESSFUL MONITORS (I can use these 8+ hours a day no problem!):

Here is a list of monitors I am sure that I CAN use for 12+ hours a day without any problem whatsoever:

1. Asus VS247H-P 23.6”, TN, 1080p, 60 Hz, 300 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 33 watt power usage, release 2/10/11. PWM detectable with camera. (Edit: Panels produced from 2012 through 2015 are totally fine, but my copy from 2018 causes symptoms!)

2. Acer G276HL Gbd 27”, VA, 1080p, 60 Hz, 300 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 24 watt power usage, release 2/1/13. PWM detectable with camera.

3. Dell P2014HT 19.5”, IPS, 900p, 60 Hz, 250 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 20 watt power usage, release late 2013. No PWM detectable.

4. Dell E177FPb 17”, TN, 1280x1024, 60 Hz, matte, release date 2007 or earlier. No PWM detectable.

5. As for a TV: 4K Samsung (UN55TU8000FXZA) I can use no problem!

SIDE-EFFECT CAUSING MONITORS:

Here is a list of monitors that make me sick in a few minutes:

1. Asus PG279Q 27”, IPS, 1440p, 165 Hz, 350 cd/m2 brightness, matte, up to 90 watt power usage, release 10/27/15. Flicker-free.

2. Asus PG278QR 27”, TN, 1440p, 165 Hz, 350 cd/m2 brightness, matte, up to 90 watt power usage, release 5/8/17. Flicker-free.

3. Acer XB271HU 27”, IPS, 1440p, 165 Hz, 350 cd/m2 brightness, matte, release 5/8/17. Flicker-free.

4. Asus VG248QE 24”, TN, 1080p, 144 Hz, 350 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 45 watt power usage, release 1/17/13. Flicker-free.

5. Nixeus NX-EDG27 27”, IPS, 1440p, 144 Hz, 300 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 32 watt avg/ 50 watt max, release 7/1/17. Flicker-free.

6. Asus VZ27AQ 27”, IPS, 1440p, 60 Hz, 250 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 40 watt power usage, release 5/12/17. Flicker-free.

7. Dell U2412M 24”, IPS, 1200p, 60 Hz, 300 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 38 watt, release 7/22/11. PWM detectable with camera.

8. LG 24MP59HT-P 23.8", IPS, 1080p, 75 Hz, 250 cd/m2 brightness, matte, 17.1 watt, release 2017. Flicker-free.

9. As for a TV: OLED TVs (at least LG OLED) are totally intolerable for me!

qb74

Gemsand

What I personally think is the problem is that you've tried out panels which do not have good motion performance and thus could be triggering some kind of eye-strain from that.

If you are able to, try one of the following monitors:
~~Viewsonic XG2431 (IPS), Dell S2522HG (IPS), AOC 24G2ZU (IPS),~~ Omen X 25 / Omen X 25f (both TN)

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UPDATE:
XG2431 does have some type of subtle flicker in some RGB transitions, while the S2522HG has static dithering, slightly green-ish text rendering, be aware/cautious!

Alternatives:
VG259QM, VG258QM, AW2523HF, AW2521HF (true 8-bit), XL2566K, MAG251RX (if 1080p)
27G1S, PG27AQN (if 1440p)
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These are some of the fastest LCD panels available and could work out if this eyestrain is related to motion blur (all of these are flicker-free too!)

If you choose the IPS models, you're less likely to have dithering and LCD artifacts, as IPS is less prone to this.

~~You could also consider getting some blue light filtering eyeglasses, such as the Uvex Skyper, found from this video~~
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UPDATE:
Not a big fan of this approach above anymore , as you're gimping eyesight by looking through acryllic.
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I will also quote Chief's reply to a similar problem from the Blurbusters forums for some guidance, hope it can help you!

There are MANY causes of eyestrain that are not related to flicker or PWM.
- antiglare
- polarization
- pixel structure
- brightness
- contrast
- color gamut
- blur eyestrain
- stutter eyestrain
- screen too bright relative to environment
- etc

Everybody is different. Some people get more motion blur eyestrain, to the point where strobing reduces eystrain (especially when using VSYNC ON framerate=Hz, especially when reducing strobe crosstalk via refresh rate headroom, e.g. 120fps 120Hz on a 240Hz panel). So your eyestrain won't be the same as others.

Strobing framerate=Hz is often less eyestrain than PWM dimming, because the phantom array effect is the bigger eyestrain cause than the direct flicker itself.

Brightness strain test: Reduce brightness via monitor OSD. If already too low, adjust using NVIDIA Control Panel. Add a bias light behind your monitor so your monitor is not rudely blatantly the brightest object in your vision field.

Blur eyestrain: Turn strobing on and see what happens (optional, but recommended, use framerate=Hz too as strobing amplifies jitters)

Stutter eyestrain: Test VSYNC ON (or similar framerate=Hz sync technology like RTSS Scanline Sync) or use VRR.

Color gamut strain test: Reduce contrast in NVIDIA Control Panel and see what happens

Polarization strain test: Most monitors use a rotatable stand, so rotate your monitor 90 degrees (And configure Control Panel for a portrait display) and see if your eyestrain changes on your IPS panel. Some people are eyestrain-sensitive to the light polarization of certain LCDs. Many IPS panels are polarized 90 degrees differently than many TN panels. Also, AUO vs Innolux sometimes have different polarizations.

Some are difficult to test (e.g. antiglare texture test).

Unfortuantely, you will have to self-diagnose, as there are too many eyestrain causes of a monitor.

Liberator005

Gemsand

You may check this post of mine from some time :

https://ledstrain.org/d/1559-alternative-causes-to-the-symptoms-we-are-experiencing

I think there are multiple causes, from hardware but also from software with the drivers. This is complex. But obviously the screens nowadays just look different from some years ago, and for me they look straight worse.

One main thing is they are warmer and often have an intense red wavelenght peak that could hurt our eyes, just like looking at a laser.

Personally, I've noticed this not only on monitors, but also on TVs, on smarphones screens and more problematic, on cars dashboards. There seems it's a universal change. I don't know what it is exactly though, but it could be related to some power saving techniques, in the line of "reducing" global warming.

Marius

Gemsand

I am having quite a problem with new monitors… I made a post about it here but I will post also my findings here. Hope this helps, and maybe we can cross check my findings as well:

Hello everyone.

My usual monitor is a LG 29UM59-P. Worked great for many years. Still does.

Also as a 2nd monitor I used a Philips 227E. Also great for many years.

Finally wanted an upgrade. Looked for a gaming monitor (I also stream/record) in 1080p.

So looked for a IPS, 144-240 Hz, with also good reviews regarding colors for editing.

Went already through 3 monitors :

Gaming LED IPS Acer Nitro 24.5" - XV253QPbmiiprzx (bad eye sore and headaches). Found out the screen was not flickering but kind of a on-off/really fast shake (could see it in games in dark areas especially)
Ips Lenovo Legion y25-25 - also eye sores
Now I have an IPS AOC 23.8" - 24G2SPU/BK - also eye pain and headaches

I just can't understand why this happens. I constantly feel like/can see that fast shake or fast on-off of the screen. Dunno how to say it otherwise.

All monitors are flicker free (did all sorts of test) , no bands going up and down on the screens.

NOW... I have eye glasses with add on tints. The blue light (i guess) tint blocked helps a lot with blue light and wanted to test them out.

Here is how a real scene look likes vs. using the glasses.

Also the 2 screens : My old monitor vs. AOC (normal screens) and with glasses.

Something is really ODD. Why does the AOC has minimal changes and not as much as my old LG (which simulates the real life scenario?)

Can this have something to do with the eyes strain? I only tested the glasses on the AOC but why is this such a big difference?

With or without glasses I can stay on the LG 24/24 with no pain... on the AOC it hurts with or without glasses.

Also went to a shop and tested a whole row of monitors.

Out of about 30 of them, 6 of them had the yellow tin when looked on with glasses, the other didn't.

All monitors looked "normal" and similar with the naked eye.

The guy from the store said it might have to do with the technology of the panel. Indeed LG (my old monitor) has a technology called "Eye Comfort" but I don't know if it's that or not.

Any ideas?

Can anybody test also? if they have a monitor which doesn't hurt anymore and a pair of glasses that block blue light to make the same test like real world vs glasses? but with the monitor?

Gemsand

qb74

Thank you for your thoughts sir! I will carefully consider what you have provided.

My experience with LED desk lamps causing the same issue, and also monitors which are not showing an image but are still powered on with black screen also causing the same issue, makes me doubt motion performance being the issue- but I am definitely willing to consider and investigate all ideas. Thank you!

ocean10

qb74

This sounds EXACTLY like me. Something universal seems to have changed across all types of screens. I have two old HP Elite Display E221i that I still use for work. Every modern monitor I've tried to change them with makes me feel sick almost immediately (hard to describe but something like motion sickness - foggy, headache, dizzy, and my body starts to feel very warm). I first noticed this when I upgraded to the iPhone X when it came out. I almost called 911 when I was setting it up because my symptoms were so severe (before I realized it was from the phone). Now I seem to get this feeling from monitors, laptops, many TV's, car screens etc. Old monitors I have no issues with. I use an Iphone SE 3 that I assume is still okay because it uses old screen technology.

I don't have a solution to any of this but you aren't alone.

ensete

I dont think it has anything to do with age. LED's have different drivers across manufacturers, different quality when it comes to color reproduction, and all sorts of other differences.

Gemsand

@Liberator005 Great post sir, thank you! I think you are on point with this. This following statement resonates for me: "One main thing is they are warmer and often have an intense red wavelength peak that could hurt our eyes, just like looking at a laser." - When I look at the monitors that bother me, I can typically immediately identify they look "warmer" somehow. I once read that LEDs have added red wavelengths in order to fill out the color spectrum so that they can make certain color spectrum claims for marketing purposes. (I don't have a link for that right now but I'll post it if I find it.)

Your linked forum post is very helpful and mirrors my own thoughts after many hours of digging into this myself.

In the spirit of testing this theory, I am very much wondering if there is a way to differentiate which screens use WLEDs that are blue LEDs with yellow phosphors, and which are blue LEDs with red and green phosphors. (I once emailed several monitor companies asking them for specs on the WLED backlights used and they all refused to provide that information.) Most technical spec sites just list "WLED," it seems very difficult to identify the exact LED type.

qb74

Marius Look at my reply above, I'd honestly consider switching to faster and better LCD's as you seem to also have tried worse panels.

Liberator005

Marius That's extremely interesting.

It might have to do with the fact that new monitors have already much less blue light than older monitors and on the contrary, have a much more intense red wavelength. That would explain why there is not much difference when you put your blue light blocking glasses.

One of my theories is that the red peak wavelength emitted by recent monitors is one of the main causes of the eyestrain experienced by us here. It would act a bit like looking at a laser.

JTL

At a guess, the light spectrum between both monitors is different.

Sunspark

JTL Yes, the LG emits more blue light than the AOC that's why the lens is more yellow.

Same reason leaves are green, they reflect green light.

Gemsand

@Marius Do you mean the monitors that show as more yellow are tolerable by you without glasses? (Whereas the LG on the right is intolerable without glasses?) I would be thrilled to try some kind of similar test with my own situation- I have quite a long list of monitors that I could try this on. Do you have any details or specification about the glasses tint?

RobC

The problem is definitely related with the light emission. I know this because spending little time at front of a new display not only causes me eye strain but also a high skin pain. Refresh rate has nothing to do with it. It is related with the backlight type.

It happens to me with all new displays (TV, monitors, phones, notebooks and LED bulbs). I can use devices with old kind of backlights 24hs a day without any problem. Specially devices with CCFL or old LED backlights. The only exception I detected is with some big CCFL monitors with more nits (cd per m2) that also cause me problems.

The confirmation to this is that with old Samsung LED TV that were the first device that hurts me, I solve this problem by lowering the backlight option to the minimum. After that I could use it as normal.

It seems related with the maximum nits of the backlight that is always on, and with his light spectrum. Lowering the bright doesn't solve the problem, only the backlight. It seems that the dangerous light emitted by the backlight couldn't be completely filtered by the bright or contrast of the LCD that is at front of the light source.

Liberator005

RobC Same for me. I would also add new cars dahsboards cause the same pain to me…

Gemsand

RobC Sounds like we have a very similar problem. I've spent years trying to figure this out and I also feel confident it is the light emission itself. I'd love to find a newer (preferably gaming?) display that uses the older LED backlights that I can tolerate, but so far, nadda. If you have any success in that area please send a message. 🙂

smilem

Did anyone tried ZEPTER hyperlight-eyewear? Material Fullerene C60 used in them is not scam.

https://www.davidpublisher.com/Public/uploads/Contribute/5b73831fd3ab8.pdf

https://scindeks-clanci.ceon.rs/data/pdf/0042-8450/2021/0042-84502104403J.pdf

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3a29/e4232d080f8e6e6f009fc8743156613d4115.pdf

Normal price is ~180Eur anything more is a scam.

Gemsand

smilem Thanks for the suggestion sir! I will look into it.

Sunspark

Why is it so expensive for non-prescription plastic?

smilem

Sunspark

"Why is it so expensive for non-prescription plastic?"

I can ask why prescription plastic should be expensive? Glass lenses are never custom made they are + or - 0.25 diopters steps, nobody makes glasses just for you vision correction. ZEPTER is an expensive compamy, some of their products are a scam. But this one including Bioptron patent are the non fake ones. Bioptron is medical device in hospitals worldwide.

Polarized light can heal, it also can be damaging. Monitors are polarized light emitters, they need to fall to strict standards, yet nobody cares. This is why we have problems with eye pains and such.

Fakir35

@Gemsand

Hi, i acknowledged your experience and valuable suggestions on displays. But those monitors are too old and difficult to find in market also i suspicious about is it compatible with modern systems while i'm thinking myself as gamer. Dont you have any suggestions with modern monitors for eye care? i'm also suffering with same problem. Thank you.

Aquila

Fakir35 Hp X27i

Gemsand

Fakir35

Alas, no sir. In the last 6 years I've managed to try about 30 (newer) monitors and none of them work for me. I did recently purchase the HP X27i on Aquila's recommendation and will be trying that next week, will post my experience here. I tried the BenQ TK700STi gaming projector a couple weeks ago and it caused the same problem for me- which is very interesting because it has no LEDs. It does flicker (240 Hz pixel shifting to do 4k, plus it's a DLP projector and the flashing sequential red/green/blue "painting" DLPs do in whites was very obvious), so I'm back to suspecting some kind of flicker (either in the backlight itself or in temporal dithering maybe) as my main problem. That also seems strange to me considering I've experienced an LED desk lamp that causes the same symptoms and an offensive monitor with the backlight on but with black screen still bothers me too. The screens I can use I can use for 12 hours a day without any issue whatsoever; but just minutes looking at the offensive devices affects my eyes for days. It's a weird puzzle I cannot seem to get to the bottom of. Let's all continue to share ideas. 🙂