BloodyHell619 @HAL9000 Don't see why messing around with various monitors would do any good if hypothetically the output stage of the GPU is so severely compromised that messing with color profiles or drivers is just patching over the problem making it "less terrible" as opposed to what should be an "untainted" output.

Speaking of which, anyone know the cheapest Nvidia card that has a "bad" output? Especially in these times with the supply chain crisis. I currently don't own any and if I ever get my test rig up and running again might want to have one for empirical comparisons and research.

      JTL Don't see why messing around with various monitors would do any good if hypothetically the output stage of the GPU is so severely compromised that messing with color profiles or drivers is just patching over the problem making it "less terrible" as opposed to what should be an "untainted" output.

      Yeah, it really sucks. But what other choice is there left? NVIDIA impudently lies, and says the card is not doing any dithering! People are calling us crazy. Reading around, I am seeing that AMD and Intel cards are also dithering and as bad. And there literally is no other option on the market. We'd literally have to give up gaming. I even think the PS5 and XBOX do it -.-

      This is an interesting and rather sad post. It makes it clear that none of the dithering disabling tweaks and apps will disable it. This is probably why NVIDIA refuses to admit the card is doing dithering. It could be that it's not even fixable with a driver.

      https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/eliminating-temporal-dithering-for-sensitive-folks/

      JTL Speaking of which, anyone know the cheapest Nvidia card that has a "bad" output? Especially in these times with the supply chain crisis. I currently don't own any and if I ever get my test rig up and running again might want to have one for empirical comparisons and research.

      If I am correct, the 2060 should be the cheapest troublemaker.

      • JTL replied to this.

            BloodyHell619 Yeah, it really sucks. But what other choice is there left? NVIDIA impudently lies, and says the card is not doing any dithering! People are calling us crazy. Reading around, I am seeing that AMD and Intel cards are also dithering and as bad. And there literally is no other option on the market. We'd literally have to give up gaming. I even think the PS5 and XBOX do it -.-

            My work computer has a Radeon Pro W5500, and at least my unit has no dithering by default either in BIOS or under Linux with the amdgpu driver.

            I certainly do think more R&D is needed here.

                BloodyHell619 This is an interesting and rather sad post. It makes it clear that none of the dithering disabling tweaks and apps will disable it. This is probably why NVIDIA refuses to admit the card is doing dithering. It could be that it's not even fixable with a driver.

                I have seen that post before, and I don't think that simplification is entirely accurate, but it's more complex than a simple "yes/no" question.

                  ryans Also, you can see temporal dithering on an e-ink display here -- notice the dancing dots.

                  Yes, my eInk display (Dasung not eReader) makes temporal dithering very visible as dancing dots, and eInk gives me symptoms at least as fast, if not faster, than other monitors when the dithering is obvious. Dithering is particularly bad on the Mac generally, especially in Apple programs like Preview, or if Nightshift is on (extra whole-screen dithering), or if I highlight something (extra dithering in the highlight). Desktop versions of Microsoft and Adobe programs (old versions at this point) aren’t nearly as bad as Apple Preview. I tried to post some videos here - it’s hard to capture a good video, but Mac dithering on eInk is very visible in person and it looks like writhing worms:

                  https://ledstrain.org/d/1203-win10-finally-caught-up-to-me-and-i-might-be-losing-my-career-because-of-it/32

                  I haven’t used eInk much with my current “best” Windows 7 setup, other than to figure out that I prefer my CCFL monitor to the eInk.

                    a month later

                    JTL Not sure if you mentioned this anywhere, but did you test Windows with your Radeon GPU as well?

                    • JTL replied to this.

                        devilgrove No.

                        a) Don't want to mess with my work computer

                        b) Considering other alleged rendering issues with recent Windows 10 a "unusable" result could be potentially a red herring.

                          BloodyHell619 Same as you, i get eye strain for gpu card like rtx 3050, 3060ti,3070,2060. Then i change my prosesor from ryzen 3500x to i5 12400. And i switch the display hdmi from gpu rtx 3070 to the hdmi motherboard. So i use igpu intel HD. And voila, my eyestrain is gone. Even if i play a game.in game option i still can choose to use rtx 3070 but without eye strain. Hope this can help u

                              13 days later

                              I spent $799 on a new NVidia 3080 because there is a setting in the Linux NVidia control panel that is supposed to disable temporal dithering. It turns out that setting does nothing. I still got really bad eye strain.

                              Here is a video showing the temporal dithering with the nvidia control panel temporal dithering setting set to "disabled". This was filmed from my iphone 5s:

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1uSl7vE7EU

                              14 days later

                              ludwig

                              Thanks so much, this is pretty life-saving, and it's also huge proof that NVIDIA is blatantly lying about the cards not doing any dithering. I wish we could somehow makeeveryone realize this and force NVIDIA to do something about this.
                              Any idea if the same would be possible if I bought a Ryzen CPU with integrated graphics? Don't wanna change both my MB and CPU for this. If that is true, I might actually go and buy a new CPU. Totally worth it. I am constantly reminded how big of a mistake it is to buy a CPU without integrated graphics, like my Ryzen 3600xt. It is such a handy thing to have when you get into trouble.

                              There is one more problem with this though, since the MB only has one HDMI output, you can't use a multiple monitor setup, right?

                                "Any cheap monitor suggestions that would neither have PWM nor drive me blind with Temporal Dithering?"

                                Luckily for your wallet temporal dithering is a software (os/device driver) thing - not a hardware thing. I feel your pain on the equipment cost.

                                  "huge proof that NVIDIA is blatantly lying about the cards not doing any dithering"
                                  They are probably talking about while rendering a 3d scene. All cards dither on 2d rendering.

                                  ludwig So i use igpu intel HD. And voila, my eyestrain is gone. Even if i play a game.in game option i still can choose to use rtx 3070 but without eye strain.

                                  Makes sense that the gpu cards do dithering your eyes don't like in 2D rendering.

                                    BloodyHell619 You can find flicker-free monitors on RTINGS (here's a list: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/motion/image-flicker), and then verify that it doesn't use FRC on https://www.displayspecifications.com

                                    Problem is that RTINGS uses a photodiode tool that is not powerful enough to detect very high frequency PWM, so they may say that a monitor is flicker-free when it actually has PWM at very high frequency (reason why they couldn't show the 118Khz PWM on this review of the MacBook Air 13 2020: https://www.rtings.com/laptop/reviews/apple/macbook-air-13-m1-2020) but I think that it doesn't happen often

                                    Only real solution is to buy a monitor that has already been tested by someone for PWM and dithering or buy an oscilloscope to test PWM and a tool like this: https://ledstrain.org/d/1903-gear-used-by-notebookcheckcom to test dithering

                                    You can also ask the support of a brand the list of their monitors that doesn't use PWM nor dithering (like he did for BenQ: https://ledstrain.org/d/1341-monitors-that-dont-use-temporal-dithering)

                                      5 months later

                                      qb74 I'm curious, this topic always intrigued me. I've seen so many people claim temporal dithering is the cause of their issues but no verification in form of video to show it.

                                      Meant to show this at the time but getting to it now, here's an example of one capture of GPU sided temporal dithering in my lab. Obligatory warning of flashing imagery, etc.

                                      hxxps://user-images.githubusercontent.com/1234670/233909663-e957ed90-86d8-4972-ba3e-92572b6d1fb2.webm

                                      If you're curious the differing picture modes are a function of my project VideoDiff, and I suspect the intermittent blanking early in the capture was an issue with capturing at the time. It's really horrid when actually trying to use it like that, so that prompted my attempt to capture this.

                                        4 days later

                                        ludwig

                                        Then i change my prosesor from ryzen 3500x to i5 12400. And i switch the display hdmi from gpu rtx 3070 to the hdmi motherboard. So i use igpu intel HD. And voila, my eyestrain is gone. Even if i play a game.in game option i still can choose to use rtx 3070 but without eye strain.

                                        Can you provide the full intel MBoard name and bios version?
                                        OS ver. ?(+build)
                                        intel HD driver version ? display model?

                                        did you try display port or only hdmi ?

                                          2 months later

                                          ludwig
                                          Can you provide the full intel MBoard name and bios version?
                                          OS ver. ?(+build)
                                          intel HD driver version ? display model?

                                            Oh, I know what you mean! I had a similar problem last year.

                                            I had terrible pressure and eye pain from my Radeon rx 570 video card

                                            Severe eye pressure from the Nvidia 2060 super.

                                            Not as much with the Gtx 1080 ti, but still not comfortable to use

                                            In the case of gtx 1660s everything is great! But it is too weak and hot, noisy. But I'm afraid to buy something new

                                              dev