hey,
I always came up with the theory, that there is not a certain technical thing which causes our eyestrain.
My theory: Our eyes are permanentely "tired" and a bit strainend which is however perfectly ok in everyday life. So than comes: "better picture", pwm, dithering,....
A normal person won't be affected from such things or just a little bit, however if your eyes are always a bit strainend only a bit more stress for the eyes leads to heavy eyestrain. This also explains why we don't find "the technical reason" for us. The reason is a bit more stress for your eyes.

@ensete theories also pretty much helped me.

Today my dentist and orthodondist connected me to an absolut expert for jaw problems in my hometown. (I don't know why I've never heared of her).
A short summary of what she said:
I have problems with the contact of my upper and lower front teeth. (Thats the same my orthodontist said, however he didn't know the reason.)
This leads to problems with muscles in my neck, shoulders,... and so on. This contact problem also leads to chronical sinusitis and problems in the hole ENT area.
Moreover she also guessed that I have problems with my eyes - which is absolutely correct. Explainend me why and also told me about the permanent strained position of my eyes.

Long story short she was not surprised that I have so many problems and said that pretty much of her patients have similar symptons and come with a big history to her, while any other expert told them, that they are very healthy.
In one month is the next appointment. Hope the best for it. Today was just a counseling.

    Harrison My theory: Our eyes are permanentely "tired" and a bit strainend which is however perfectly ok in everyday life.

    So I've seen so man specialists about this issue I've lost count, and one thing is unanimous among them, this is NOT an eye problem. It's a brain problem. Our brains are mishandling the signal that is triggering us, and the result is over actuation of the muscles around the eyes.

        ensete Ive seen a famous neurologist about this issue, but he has been of no help. Told me it is overuse syndrome, that man is not made to look into any display for 8 hours a day and that he can not help other than to suggest to take a month off all displays and see. Did not seem interested in my explanation about older devices not causing it and immediate relief there. Other suggestion was that it is psychosomatic.
        It is difficult to find doctors interested in exploring new unexplained topics.

        I agree that it must be health related, as most people just do not have this issue. Separating brain and eye issue is difficult though, as they influence each other (eyes send information into the brain, but brain is also taught what to see and notice). Ive seen one post about macular pigment, has anyone here ever got it tested or tried to take supplements for it? https://glarminy.com/2017/09/27/macular-pigment-eye-supplements-meso-zeaxanthin-safety/comment-page-1/

            martin Did not seem interested in my explanation about older devices not causing it and immediate relief there. Other suggestion was that it is psychosomatic.
            It is difficult to find doctors interested in exploring new unexplained topics.

            That's the same the neurologist I once visited told me. He had no explanation and even said "this is impossible".

                KM

                Yeah. The same at my side. The mentionend doctor was the first one who said, that this is totally normal behavior for people with such a jaw problem.

                I do not say that this is the solution. However the first real health thing which is not just an idead or a chimera.

                  I went to see an eye specialist at a local hospital a while back. The doctor, an Ophthamologist, conducted the retinoscopy procedure on my eyes. The results shows that my eyes have high cup-to-disc ratio. I asked the doctor, what does this mean, is it bad? The doctor said that I have an irregular optic nerve. "Irregular" because of the high cup to disc ratio. But the doctor says this does not necessarily mean bad, it just means different.

                  I asked is having an irregular optic nerve is the reason why I suffer eye strain from PWM and other display devices? The doctor cant say that for sure, because there are no study done on this yet. The doctor said, many who came to the hospital seeking treatment for eye strain, most if not all of them does not know the reason why. The word the doctor said, most of them are not "observant" enough to know the cause of their eye strain, unlike me, the doctor said, who has identified the specific causes, which is due to PWM and intel graphics driver.

                  So, many people get eye strain, but most of them believed it is because of their eyes, and they are not aware it is actually because of the technology used in some of these display that is causing the eye strain. We need a university or some research hospital to do a study on this to see how big this problem really is, and to find the connection, the common factor why some of us gets this eye strain, while others do not.

                  Anyway, back to my medical result, due to the high cup-to-disc ratio, the doctor advised me to undergo further test to rule out Glaucoma, which is a disease that damages the eye’s optic nerve due to buildup of pressure in the eyes. Without proper care and treatment, glaucoma can cause total permanent blindness. Scary.

                  I have undertaken the test recommended by the doctor, which is the Humphrey Visual Field Test, the result shows my left eye is normal, but my right eye condition is “borderline”. The doctor advised me to take the test every year just as a precaution.

                  These eye strain that we are having, it might be caused by pressure build up in our optic nerve, which can be dangerous. So if we do get eye strain, especially those really bad eye strain from laptops or phones, we better stop using it. Meaning dont force ourselves to use devices that causing us eye strain. Sometime I too "force" myself to really use a specific device for long periods of time (because I really want to use that device), and that got me very severe eye strain. I have stopped doing that. Dont get me wrong, I still do use devices that causes me eye strain, to test it out to see if I can really use it, sometimes experimenting a few stuff to find a solution, but I wont overdo it. For devices that give me eye strain, I would just using it for short periods of time, then rest to let the eyes recover. I dont want to take any risk of damaging my optic nerve.

                  Has anyone else done this retinoscopy procedure? If not yet, maybe you should consider doing it too, and we can compare our test results, so see if there is any common factor or similarities that might explain our condition.

                    I've had my eyes checked by 4 eye doctors. I think a retinoscopy has also been done. No abnormalities. I do have a rupture in the cornea in the right eye, which was caused by a laptop bag carry belt that whipped to the eye as it got disconnected from the connector. In fact, it is the right eye that is always more bloodshot when I have this eye strain from PWM or temporal dithering.

                    Otherwise I've always been very healthy, I've had no other "weird" symptoms from anything else. But I think this seems to be the case for many others. The only issue they have with their health, is strained eyes from PWM or dithering. It is frustrating that neurologists etc. are trying to suggest that this is psychosomatic, as it just clearly is not. And I really can tell this, as I've had this for 25 years.

                    One thing though - dieting, e.g. consuming less calories than needed, makes this problem worse. Especially ketogenic dieting. But still - it makes it worse only if there is a display that irritates the eyes. I've done some intermittent fasting and on days where I've had 16-24 h fast, if there is a display that irritates, my eyes get more bloodshot and recover more slowly. (Other people report also having red eyes while doing ketogenic diet, so I think this is kinda normal, if you do something a bit extreme, some stuff like this can happen in the body)

                    Has anyone been able to find any doctor who would acknowledge this problem and admit that it is a problem and is not psychosomatic? I'm in the process of trying to find an eye doctor who would actually see this happening to my eyes - I'd go with normal clear eyes to the appointment, then use e.g. a Samsung AMOLED phone for 30 minutes, then the doctor could see with his own eyes that my eyes are clearly bloodshot and he'd have to acknowledge that this is a thing that really happens.

                    Of course, people who do not have this problem are usually unable to relate to this, so the doctor could probably still claim that is is psychosomatic that I somehow just produce the bloodshot eyes in this situation. But I assure you that this will happen every time, even if there is no way of knowing if the display has PWM, so a double blind test could be performed as well. It is quite easy to do, as some displays have PWM at 99% brightness and no PWM at 100%. So the doctor could adjust the brightness value by 1% which is not something that you would be able to notice by eye, but you would be able to see the eyes go bloodshot if the brightness is 99%

                    It's interesting some of you say one of your eyes hurts and gets red first. It's the same for me. My left eye is the first eye that starts to hurt and get red (bloodshot). Often it's the only eye which is red. Sometimes the redness is evenly distributed, sometimes only very selectivity. Which depends on the display/software or light source I've been looking at.

                    The eye doctor said there's nothing wrong with my eyes and that I don't need glasses. I also did a test where I looked at some screen center where dots move in from all sides. As soon as I saw a dot anywhere I had to push a button. I guess that was the Humphrey field test? The examiner said that test didn't show any problems.

                      Kray I'd be interested in knowing if IOP (Intraocular pressure) correlates with eyestrain.

                      They have portable devices for measuring IOP. Would be interesting to look into (ha) and record some results when having strain, not having strain, etc.

                      http://www.icaretonometer.com/products/icare-home-tonometer/

                      One thing that's interesting is that cannabis is proven to lower intraocular pressure without a doubt. And with it I notice the eyestrain is MUCH better.

                      Been a little experiment of mine since the beginning of the year with a new doctor, and it's made real results.

                      I've been meaning to write about this earlier, but like all new treatments didn't want to "jump the gun" and give false hope early. I can say that's not the case though.

                      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1772142/

                        The whole thing it's interesting, but if you don't have the time skip to 4:00 and just watch that segment. My old pain doc sent me this back in 2012: "Look up on youtube "anthony sims dental" I am wiring with this group and we are finding that all sorts of things clear up when the jaw is repositioned to take the pressure off the discs."

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdng6X5DPRQ

                          degen

                          Hey.

                          all sorts of things clear up when the jaw is repositioned to take the pressure off the discs

                          Thats absolutely the same my new expert doctor told me and I was trying to explain you. ;-)

                            I guess we can all agree that the issue is a mix of health problems and technological changes (pwm, dither, anything else not yet discovered...).
                            I have been talking to a physiotherapist friend, tried one thing and wonder whether you might have similar experience. My testing device which causes the strain now is iphone SE, which I am keeping as long as I can before it looses value to test all I can on it.
                            What I have noticed is that for me the issue is definately connected with my eyes being unable to focus (lock focus) on the screen. I have tried to keep close attention to what all my eye muscles and face muscles are doing when looking into the display - general tension until strain and migraine.
                            However when I refocus my eyes every couple seconds to the edge of the phone or anything in the same plane of focus, my eyes and all the muscles around them tend to relax immediately. Of course then, looking back at the screen, it starts again. However this helps me to avoid the strain before it builds up into a migraine. Annoying and still not a solution, but I wonder whether you could try and see if you have similar experience? Refocusing basically resets the eyestrain to zero.

                            Unfortunately so far I dont think I can train my eyes and muscles to relax completely when looking at the screen. Nor am I sure if that would be healthy in case this is a justified defense mechanism to avoid these specific devices and whatever they do wrong.

                              For some people, this inability to focus and resulting eye strain has been related to the "crystalline" anti glare coating on some displays.

                                degen you got me shoving a block of balsa wood in my mouth. feels interesting.. i wonder if the positive (for me and others) effect of wearing earplugs could be related? e.g. pushing the joint forward a bit..

                                i'm certainly in the long term teeth grinding camp

                                  MagnuM Uh. Should I be worried? My doctor prescribed me Ciprodex ear drops which are similar but I assume a smaller dose as well.

                                      martin Ive seen a famous neurologist about this issue, but he has been of no help. Told me it is overuse syndrome, that man is not made to look into any display for 8 hours a day and that he can not help other than to suggest to take a month off all displays and see. Did not seem interested in my explanation about older devices not causing it and immediate relief there. Other suggestion was that it is psychosomatic.
                                      It is difficult to find doctors interested in exploring new unexplained topics.

                                      I 100% understand and agree, it is VERY difficult to find a neurologist who takes this disability seriously. It took my 6 tries before I found one and even he isn't great. Really what it comes down to is our issue is unknown, and practicing physicians aren't in the business of research and determining causes to unknown problem. They just put you through a treatment protocol, prescribe the treatment protocol directs, and moves you on your way. Our problem is largely unresearched, and just isn't well known. Most of the research concerning it is based out of the UK as well.

                                      The one consensus I have been able to arrive at between my neurologists, ophthalmologists, and ophthalmologists is that it is a brain issue, not an eye issue

                                      . Ive seen one post about macular pigment, has anyone here ever got it tested or tried to take supplements for it?

                                      I tried various supplements and "blue light protection" pills, they don't do squat.

                                      Has anyone else done this retinoscopy procedure?

                                      I've had three full nuero-optholomogic workups, including that test and others. My rods, cones, optic nerve, pressures, everything is perfectly fine.

                                      One thing though - dieting, e.g. consuming less calories than needed, makes this problem worse.

                                      I have actually noticed that as well. When I am dieting, my sensitivities go WAY up

                                      Has anyone been able to find any doctor who would acknowledge this problem and admit that it is a problem and is not psychosomatic?

                                      My nuerologist knows it is a problem, and I've seen some biofeedback and nuerofeedback practitioners who are familiar with it. Anecdotally a lot of people seem to know people who suffer from it, but no one knows a treatment. I have run into a willful desire by the medical community to not want to acknowledge the issue or try novel treatments or research. It;s bewildering, but it is what it is.

                                      I saw the top nuero as the second leading headache research center on the planet, and he acknowledged it is a known problem that simply isn't receiving a lot of attention. He's the one who told me that most of the research on the issue is coming out of the UK these days.

                                      I'd be interested in knowing if IOP (Intraocular pressure) correlates with eyestrain.

                                      I've had my IOP checked more times than I can count. Perfectly normal. Once again, all signs point to this NOT being an eye problem. It's a brain problem.

                                      There is an increasing area of research growing concernign the effect of colors on eye health, brain health, and eyestrain/headaches. Irlen Syndrome has been picking up steam as an explanation for photophoia and an associated treatment, there is a new treatment called "Spectonics" that treats individuals inability to properly process light of a certain color, unfortunately licensed practitioners are few and far beween near me so I haven't been able to try it. Vision Therapy has been around for a while and can be used to treat perceptual abnormalities (a ot of folks with our problem report issues trying to "lock on" to images in certain screens, wth associated eye strain). I did a full 3 month course of Visual Therapy and it cured my sensitivity to 1 type of screen, credit card terminals. Unfortunately it did not help with PC or phone screens.

                                      And when comparing phone screens now, it is incredibly clear that the screens that do hurt my eyes and the screens that don't hurt my eyes have different color balances. Glaringly obvious. Also dithering and PWM being on or off don't impact me at all. At this point, I am 99% certain my eye strain is caused by the color of the light/LED. Not saying it is that way for everyone, but it's the only symptom that fits in every single case I have experienced, and it where I am focusing all of my research and testing on from this point forward.

                                          ensete I certaily notice a huge difference in effect between colors of standalone leds. blue being the worst. followed by white(!) then red. green maybe is the least offensive.

                                          Have you tried the Alpha Stim thing- hooks up to your ear lobes and gives little shocks? I did that for a while & it was interesting.

                                              dev