We know that what is causing the most problems are PWM and temporal dithering. Dithering is used by displays to reproduce colors that they cannot show on screen by rapidly switching pixel colors. The problem is most of the operating systems/graphics card give you no option to disable this. So my idea is, first of all let's choose a screen with no PWM to rule out this issue. This screen was hurting my eyes at the beginning. What I've done to make it usable is: 0) Make sure that the screen is below eye level, and that the brightness is matching the light from the environment. 1) Set a warm color profile, or night filter. 2) Set display saturation to 0. Your screen is now black and white. 3) Evaluate if the screen is safe now. If yes, increase saturation by 2 or 5 and use it for some days. Eventually your eyes will adapt to the screen. Repeat these steps until you find the highest level of saturation that gives you no symptoms. If the screen is not usable in black and white, the problem is not caused by colors, and there are other reasons why the screen hurts your eyes. Personally, I'm very sensitive to the modern trash over-saturated displays. My Xiaomi Mi 10 is usable with anti-flicker mode and the color profile "vivid" disabled. My M1 Macbook pro is usable with the "ROMM RGB" color profile. I know how uncomfortable it is to live with this problem and I hope that is method can help someone, if yes please let me know.

Hello, very interesting experience. And what about other OS? Do you have configuration which work for you on Windows or Linux?

arturpanteleev The saturation method works in windows, it's a setting in your graphics driver. Tested with nvidia, amd and intel cards. For Mac I didn't find that option, but I've found out that the ROMM RGB profile makes colors very washed out, helping my symptoms. On linux I'm experimenting to make my other laptop usable (LG Gram with Iris Xe graphics), but I still didn't find a working configuration.

reese3222 For Mac I didn't find that option Under Color Filters, you can set grayscale If on BenQ monitor, those have black&white setting

Sharing what helped me

reese3222

daniel_mate the point is increasing saturation gradually, in order for the eyes to adapt. You can apply color profiles or grayscale filter on Mac OS, but I didn't find any slider for the saturation value.

Liberator005

I'll try that. Can't believe this dithering nonsense honestly. They try to display colors that we wouldn't be able to dettect anyway, and by doing so, they just ruin the visual experience. Every screen nowadays looks hard to focus on, I can't even sit down and enjoy watching a video or something peacefully. There is always this incomfort and urge to look away. This madness is making me use screens so much less, at least it has a side positive impact i guess.

dawidd6

Where can one find those display saturation settings on Android exactly?

insta42014

The only solution is to find a method to disable dithering and then verify that it is indeed disabled

Making your screen black and white or with dull colors doesn’t disable dithering, nor does using different color profiles

Dithering is used to make gradients smoother not to extend the color gamut or make the colors more vivid

And using a warm color profile doesn’t have any effect on dithering

I think it will be a long time from now that we will find a method to disable dithering on M1 macs, so the solution may be to change your device if it causes eyestrain

JTL

insta42014 Making your screen black and white or with dull colors doesn’t disable dithering, nor does using different color profiles

I haven't formally documented my research (yet) and this is just from memory, but from some of my analysis I was able to observe dithering on what should have been a monochrome terminal window.

(Before you ask, this wasn't an M1 or MacOS system, but the example still holds)

reese3222

You're right, it probably doesn't disable dithering. But what I've written in the post still applies. I can use my MacBook pro if I apply a different color profile, and I can use some screens by reducing the saturation. However, others like my iPad show no problems with the default colors.

How can we explain this?

Liberator005

reese3222

Are you sure your symptoms are due to dithering in the first place ? I ask this cause I am myself not sure. I know for a fact that pwm is bad for me. But aside from that, I'm not certain. Sometimes, disabling dithering with the ditherig software in windows seems to help, other times, it doesn't. So there are probably other things.

I've read a study that I can't find anymore. It was saying that windows 10 introduced new processing layers from the 1709 version, something to handle more than 8 bits displays if I remember. Could be some form of dithering.

I suspect aside from dithering, high gamut screens that are not clamped to srgb could also cause problems since the colors produced by browsers are then twisted since > 100% srgb is not supported by most apps.

What I would want to know is what is this effect I notice on most recent screens and even more on windows 11 than windows 10 : image looks less flat and more "round", or "3d" with pinkish/yellowish colours in the sides of the screen. Also screen seems not still but like constantly moving, like shining. I already saw other people mention this effect in this forum. Is that caused by dithering or is it something else.

I have a strong feeling this effect that I also notice on phones, recent TV's, is one major cause of discomfort and difficulty to focus notably on white backgrounds. It looks like some kind of added processing but what exactly.

reese3222

I am not sure because I cannot identify which screen are using dithering and how strong the dithering is.

I know for sure that I am PWM sensitive because my eyes hurt after few minutes of looking at PWM screens.

But I also know that my eyes start hurting when the saturation is too high, that's why for me this method works.

mirza

I was using windows with Benq BL2711U for years without any issue on max brightness, and now same monitor plugged with MacBook Air M1 causes eye strain, slight headache, neck pain etc. How is this possible? I know it's not the monitor, since I specifically bought this monitor to not have these problems. It has to be OS, I don't know how else to explain it.

I heard last good OS version was Catalina, and I would gladly go back to that one, but M1's cannot do that.

Liberator005

reese3222

What's weird is my current laptop screen is 100% srgb. And yet, I do find it oversaturated.

I got to intel graphic control panel and reduced the saturation by -30. Now, after measurement with i1 display pro colorimeter, srgb coverage is only 60%. But the screen is more relieving and agreeable to the eyes.

I don't understand, I never had any problems with 100% srgb before. Don't know if it's this particular screen that appears somewhat oversaturated or if I just became hypersensitive to colours to the point I can't even stand normal saturation. I hope it's not the latter.

hayder1983

Liberator005 That is normal. Some monitors i tested had super strong reds, that were impossible to look at, without going down 5% with the saturation, others didnt, but all had like 98-100% Srgb coverage.

I dont think you are hypersensitive or do you have a problem with Neon colors on real life objects?

Sunspark

I personally use my oled phone in basic/natural (this is sRGB) mode. I cannot bear using vivid mode. Vivid is so hot and oversaturated it feels like it is dayglo.

My Intel driver control panel doesn't give me saturation sliders in my current settings setup, but this is not the end of the world for two reasons.. 1) Liberator005 remember instead of adjusting the slider in the graphics driver, you have the option of instead adjusting the R G B channels individually in your monitor's "custom" preset. I think there is value in restoring the slider to 100% and profiling the monitor with the R (or GB or all 3) lowered in the monitor and seeing if it's still agreeable/higher than 60% coverage. You can also use YPbPr/YCbCr mode in the graphics driver instead of RGB and it's fine because it also supports 4:4:4 chroma (I don't use RGB on my setup because it's not as hot, so worth trying). 2) In the Windows accessibility settings, there are presets for colour blindness profiles (one of which is not bad, still colour, but less saturated), but also greyscale. This setting is actually a keyboard toggle, windows-ctrl-c, so if you need a fast break from hot color or a colorblindness profile, you don't need to navigate through menus, you can instead just hit 3 keys and it'll switch instantly.. keys again to switch back. I like the greyscale setting, in part because it works well paired if you desire a monochrome monitor (i.e. green channel only).

White can be hot as well (white point) if it's too blue for the illumination in your environment. So definitely pair the greyscale accessibility toggle with something to warm it up like f.lux (have use display data in the f.lux options turned on or off for better results, on mine with on it leans more yellowish, with off it leans more reddish) or windows night light.

Liberator005

hayder1983

Ok, so it’s more dependent on the screen. But i’d have thought a calibration would correct this. My xrite i1 calibration didn’t fix it though.

Sunspark

Thanks for the info. I have a laptop so no color adjustment possibilities on the screen. I use the windows colour sliders usually. I’ll try the accessibilities tricks, looks promising. Especially greyscale.

What’s weird is my screen is 9000k colour temperature and yet I still find the white point too warm and just disagreeable to look at. It’s as if something other than colour temp is actually impacting my perception of temperature. I have an old iPhone 6 that is 6500k and yet it « feels » colder whereas the white is visibly more yellow (but less red).

Like, in modern screens for ex, when you have a white image on a black background (startup screen for ex) you can see the yellow beams coming out from the white image. They feel strong, almost blinding. I dont have this feeling on an old screen. Don’t know if others can see what I mean. Even in modern cars dashboards, the light coming from the screen seems « too much » and it’s not about brightness levels. I suspect it’s the different phosphors used. Before they used yellow phospors, but some years ago, they transitioned to red and green phosphors. The red phosphor might be the reason why I have this feeling of « constantly hot and warm » while the colour temperature is supposed to be very cool (> 9000k). I made a post about the new phoshors some months ago.

hayder1983

Sunspark Thank you very much for sharing this. I think i have a problem with reds. When i use appropriate colorblind mode(weakness to red), my eye strain is instantly reduced. The YPbPr/YCbCr mode is making red glow more, i have to use RGB full.

But i didnt now about colour blind profiles and the keyboard toggle. I will try to use color blind mode and only switch to normal mode when i need it to look at a picture. Perhaps it will help me long term. Thank you. 🙂

Sunspark

reese3222 On your Linux setup, be sure to compare between Wayland and X11, I find the two do not look the same. There is a dropdown you can select at the login screen.

reese3222

Sunspark That's an interesting advice. I'll compare them and I'll report the results.

My linux laptop is an LG Gram 17. I really like this laptop, but unfortunately it hurts my eyes. It has very oversaturated colors. I'm still trying to make it usable because I would like to keep it.

I was looking into a way to reduce saturation on linux. I've found this tool https://github.com/libvibrant/vibrantLinux, I'm testing it soon.

Liberator005

hayder1983

I also think i have problem with reds. And I’m confident saying it’s due to the red phosphors they began implemeting some years ago. Before : blue leds with yellow phosphors. Now : blue leds with red and green phosphors.

ensete

reese3222 We know that what is causing the most problems are PWM and temporal dithering.

We do not know that. At all. Is is suspected, but has been actively shown to NOT be the cause for many of us.

hayder1983

Liberator005 Welcome to the club. I have a LED TV(not a very good one) that is 4 years old. I dont have a problem with its reds. The inbuilt screen of my work laptop(bought 2022) has no strong reds(but heavy PWM). Steam deck inbuilt screen doesnt have strong reds(PWM…). The reds look nice in HDR but are straining for me with 40-100 nits. Lowering saturation makes everything super grey. Color blind mode at least doesnt mess with saturation it only shifts red to other colors, but i dont like it either, would prefer a monitor with normal reds. My BenQ is super reddish, but the only monitor i can use right now(flickerfree). My Eizo is far less redish(worst monitor i have, dont buy this brand ever).

KSF LCD is the problem, but it is intentional and they are using it for at least 3 years i think. They want to get a wider color gamut by using it. There are some workarounds(see youtube link below and link of someone who made his own icc to fix his monitor), but they are not perfect.

Also below the post of a user that switched to Dell u2719dc because of the reds of his previous monitor. Cant confirm it, just sharing. This is a 2019 panel.

I am not sure i can settle with super vibrant red, i am trying a TN Panel again. LG24GL600F and it will arrive in 2 days i think. Couldnt find anyone complaining about its reds. I will share my feelings about it when i tested it. If it isnt better will try used monitors from 2018 and before(or a plain normal office monitor…), but nothing made for punchy colors and no VA-Panel anymore.

I can totally live with these reds on a TV for 2 hours, but i need normal colors and being really flickerfree for my 8-10 hours of daily work. Even white is too punchy for me with these reds and warm colors are all more punchy. I also tried to look at some testpicture(below) and toogling color blind mode. As soon as i switch on the color filter for red color blindness(win 10 feature or AMD GPU setting) every color becomes less agressive. I can even raise contrast from 25/100 to 50/100 in my monitor settings. This picture needs to be nice to look at otherwise everything will be straining. I also had to shift to dark grey and light grey color in the browser, both with a blue touch. I always worked with white and black before, it feels so unnecessary.

And i am almost certain that this problem vanishes as you go up in brightness. I already tried once to watch a HDR movie on my BENQ with emulated HDR and colors looked really nice then. But i am light sensitive, i cant do this without getting strain.

And i want to be certain i get my monitor before the super vibrant green LEDs are coming…

But perhaps the workarounds are enough for your eyes, everyone is different, try and share 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NeEIh2Z5jQ

https://old.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/f7d4y7/lg_32gk850fb_color_and_calibration/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/hqcbox/how_to_make_red_on_my_monitor_less_vibrant/

hayder1983

Liberator005 I also think i get brainfog/nausea from my overly reddish BenQ, which i dont get from any device. There is nothing wrong with the device except colors and i dont get brainfog/nausea from "normal color" devices. I only experienced nausea with the new Sony OLED as well. If this would be true, that would mean i will have a very hard time to find a new flickerfree TV.

hayder1983

Liberator005 When i try to find the RGB color settings for red,blue and green looking normal (with the "RGB clamp" trick on AMD cards) i get a 9000k-ish white too, even . But red, blue and green look normal that way… That looks totally ok when watching a movie, but is unacceptable for work purposes and browsing/reading.

For browsing/reading i have to turn down saturation to at least 75% or less AND use the "RGB clamp" trick. Otherwise the monitor is unusable at the moment.