Usable Smartphones?

Maxx

yes, this just adds to the amazement, that there actually are engineers who know the problem with flicker, but then nobody seems to do anything about it. Doctors are being kept in the dark - engineers know that flickering leds are causing eye strain to soldiers but if that soldier goes to an eye doctor, the doctor will say "You just have dry eyes, try using moisturizing drops" Unbelievable.

KM

Maxx That black band looks indeed awful. But I wouldn't give up on OLED or assume other device models have the same flicker. I have never seen a black bar that big on my device. If it would be big like this, it would have covered my whole sensor (BPW34), and the oscilloscope would have shown zero brightness. But there's just a small dip, so if the picture shows what's truly going on, there are devices that do it better.

Maxx

The bar is much smaller and not black in higher brightness setting, but I tried to use the phone on higher brightness, too, but same eye strain. For me it really does not matter so much what type of flicker there is, if there is flicker = red eyes. Like my xperia XZ Premium, if I let the brightness go below 35%, there will be a PWM of 2300 Hz (very high) but I get immediate eye strain. So really, I get bloodshot eyes from flicker of 2300Hz, so I will also get eye strain from a lower frequency OLED DC Dimming flicker. The 2300 Hz might be difficult to understand, but really, I was using the phone a couple of evenings before Notebookcheck confirmed that there actually is PWM of 2300 Hz in lower than 35%. I was really wondering why I get red irritated eyes when there was not supposed to be PWM. Then when I read the updated review from Notebookcheck, I confirmed the flicker with my DSLR and installed a software that keeps the backlight over 35%. Now 2,5 years without problems. So really, the 2300Hz flicker really IS sensed by my optic nerves and will cause some muscle contractions or whatever is going on in the eyes that cause them to become dry and bloodshot.

Maxx

I also have tested 2 LG Oled televisions at home - in both of those the flicker is a very thin line that passes the screen at 100Hz but I still can't tolerate an OLED TV, though the flicker is equal to DC Dimming in phones. If I watch a movie, my eyes are fried after it and still in the morning and during the next day.

Maxx

But really - why is it that message after message someone tries "Oh I wouln't give up on OLED" Or "Maybe it's your device" Or "maybe you have not enabled DC Dimming" or "Maybe it's something else than PWM or flicker"

Why is it that it is so hard to understand that it IS a FACT that for many people PWM and any other sort of flicker IS a problem and no amount of trying and testing or getting used to it or what ever will fix that.

Because with displays like Xperia XZ Premium, without the PWM the screen is a joy to view, just like a book or looking at a landscape in nature. No eyestrain whatsoever. If I put the PWM on by setting the brightness to 34%, immediate eye strain. I found this be the case with countless devices over the past 10 years of LED backlit devices.

with the CTFL backlit devices the eyestrain took more time to start, as the CTFL PWM flicker was much softer as the light fades in and out, so I could use the screens for a long time, but if I e.g. played games every evening for a week, then my eyes became fried. Now with LED and OLED flicker 15-30 min is enough to get effects that last to the next day.

Maxx

now if I may offer similar doubt to people who doubt my PWM sensitivity: Those who think they are sensitive to led light and blue light and not flicker, have you absolutely confirmed with an oscilloscope or a DSLR that the Led that you think is causing the problem is totally flicker free? and that you are not using a flickering display device or video projector like DLP in that space where the assumed source of Led lighting is? My friend thought that he is sensitive to fluorescent lights at the office, but he was using a flickering display in that office, which ended up being the source of the problem. yes the blue spike in led is not good, but is it really the source of the eye strain or headache or is it the flickering of the led?

degen

"The OnePlus 7 Pro operates even more cleanly here. At 50% brightness, there is no flickering anymore, which only occurs at very low brightness levels"

It would be nice if notebookcheck showed the oscilloscope graph for 0% on their DC dimming article. So some flickering is still present on OnePlus 7 Pro at "very low brightness levels". What frequency I wonder?

Maxx

degen if it really helps, I could measure the frequencies. I gave the phone to my wife, so it's available. But for me the slight flicker that still is there at over 50%, is enough. It is the same as Galaxy s2 and s3 at 100% and those I could not tolerate.

vaz

@Maxx nobody is telling you that your experience is objectively wrong...as you are doing to others directly and taking everything as some attack as if you are a victim here. You are fixated on PWM. Maybe it is...maybe it isn't the problem. Maybe another flicker is and you THINK its PWM. Maybe it is 100% PWM for you. I know its not for me and you don't seem to apply the same respect to others you demand for yourself in saying "I KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH ME" over and over. You are rude and aggravating, and I have been patient every time I felt like saying this so far, and you are not suffering more than the rest of us. Many of us already have lost jobs and cannot use devices. Stop taking it out on us. You aren't the only one here.

Maxx

vaz so really, I accept that your problem is not PWM, but I kindly request you and others to accept that my problem is flicker from PWM and other sources. So if I come to the forum to report that Nova5t is not good for those who have the PWM problem and ask if anyone would know if there is a phone with LCD without PWM and is confirmed to be OK by someone who has the PWM problem, it is not very nice that few people actually answer the question, instead try to challenge that I'm mistaken about my problem since 25 years. Just like the typical clueless eye doctor. I think if we here are people who have lost jobs over these problems, we would have more understanding that maybe someone has a problem that I do not understand.

Maxx

it is rude from you to continue your "maybe it is PWM, maybe it is not" when I've told the proof that for me it is PWM. It is a fact. Can you please get over it? There are other sources of flicker, but PWM is totally proven source of eye strain for me and many others, no question about it at all.

And if you did not notice, I was just feeding the same back as an example, now you seem to understand how it feels as you got agitated.

vaz

Maxx

I've been agitated by most of your posts for a while now and if I could find an ignore function on the site I'd have used it. But you got what you wanted...conflict. Some people post to argue and fight. It's common online and it creates so much noise. You needed an outlet and used others here for that. I think that's wrong of you...but it's clear you will always feel the victim and fight back if anyone says anything you disagree with. I'm done with it. I just got sick of seeing your constant arguing cluttering up the thread.

Maxx

vaz I did not start it. I reported and asked a question, but was met with a challenge about the problem that I have. In these situation I will always respond. It is a shame that most internet discussions are like this - a constructive post is met with negativity and people are usually just waiting to challenge and attack. So, sometimes it's fight fire with fire, I'm human too and this problem is frustrating enough that these challenges don't feel so welcome.

Maxx

Gurm are u really serious? I have had this PWM and flicker problem for 25 years and I have not come across a single display that has PWM or flicker that would not cause problems for me. And I have several displays that do not have PWM that I am ok with. So please, show me a device with PWM that do not get my eyes bloodshot. I'll get it and show you over Skype, others can witness and if my eyes get bloodshot, u pay double the price of the device, if not, I'll pay u. We could do this with a device that does not have PWM at 100hz brightness and I could show u my eyes when the brightness is 99%. Many Samsung monitors have this

Maxx

Gurm I wonder why you would say something like that as I think u shoud know that your statements are not true. Check noteboocheck and u will find that there are several displays without PWM.

And Like I said, I've had this for 25 years also with crt and ctfl displays. With ctfl and crt the flicker is softer as the light does not switch off immediately, instead fades away.

How do u explain then that a screen is OK at 100 brightness when there is no PWM but immediately causes bloodshot eyes at 99% How do u explain this? Or are you saying that this is not the case for me? that u know better how my eyes react?

Maxx

I'm willing to reiterate what I said before. In about 2005 I had a 27 inch Samsung ctfl display. I kept noting that when I play games on several nights, my eyes get red. But then I got a Led screen and that strained my eyes immediately. After I learned about PWM, I was able to use both of the screens without any problems at 100% brightness., when there was no PWM.

during the Crt years my eyes were constantly bloodshot and I was going to several doctors in vain. but the irritation was milder. I just thought my eyes tire easily at work or when gaming.

but now when I'm using displays without PWM, or any other sort of flicker my eyes are clear and I don't have any symptoms. But an hours meeting on a dlp projector or 240hz PWM screen gets my eyes bloodshot.

Maxx

Maxx I tried 2 Epson 3ldc projectors at home after and OLED tv. Both Epson advertises as flicker free. But of course, I was detecting flicker with my dslr and my eyes became bloodshot. During 2006-2010 I had an epson projector at home, which did not show any flicker with a dslr and I was able to watch whole seasons of TV serieses without any issue.

So yes, for me it is the flicker. But e. g my wife did not seem to have any problems with the screens that get my eyes bloodshot

Maxx

Gurm can u just stop? I've been to countless doctors, neurologists, my brain has been mri'd 3 times etc. No no epilepsy. No problem with fast scenes in movies. I can play call of duty marathons for 12 hours straight without any issues with a screen that does not flicker. And your percentage assessment is just wrong. there are quite a number of people just like me, if u look at the forums. Hahaha. pre-epileptic for 25 years. Give me a break

Maxx

Maxx why do u say I'm not going to find it when I have found it already? A DISPLAY THAT DOES NOT FLICKER!

there is no PWM type flicker in nature. I you look at the sun light through tree leaves, the leaves fade in and out over the sun. the light will not go black abrubtly like OLED and the frequency is not as fast. same with light shining from waves. So nothing epileptic or similar about this problem - just my optic nerves are more sensitive to flicker. But flickering light is not natural and I don't believe that is helping anyone

Gurm

Maxx you're absolutely right that it isn't helping anyone, I think prevalence of this will increase. And I'm glad you have displays that work for you. Not ... really ... sure why you're still arguing then? If you've found your solution? Did I miss something? You seem to simply be telling people that they're PWM sensitive, when in fact there are other complicating factors. Not really sure why you can't grasp that. I can tell when a screen has PWM, but it simply doesn't bother me. That said, I am VERY MUCH bothered by LED lighting in the blue spectrum if it's too intense. I'm also hugely impacted by rendering flicker. I just don't care, and never have, about PWM. And I think that for MOST of us, it's a red herring. Because we can make known good displays hurt our eyes by changing the input. Is it a contributing factor for some? Sure.

Anyway, seems you just want to argue. Not going to fuel that any more. I'll be removing my comments and not engaging any further.

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