Usable Smartphones?

Skylar1242

I'm becoming more convinced software is causing the discomfort

kammerer

Last month I've tried next tablets without success:

Lenovo Tab M8
Samsung Galaxy Tab A 7.0
Huawei Matepad

Could you recommend anything to try?

khaneric

Hey everyone, since returning my Nord N10 I picked up a Nokia 8.3 5G and I must say so far it's going great. It doesn't have any pwm and I can look at the screen for a long time with no issues.
My only warning is the phone is huge... If you have smaller hands or like a smaller phone this is not the one for you.

Quad43

khaneric thanks. keep us informed

Dominic

khaneric

I have just bought Nokia 8.3 5G and I also must admit it's going quite well so far. I don't get most of symptoms I usually have with smartphones. I need to wait a bit, but I'm thinking of keeping Nokia as my everyday phone even if it's inconveniently huge.

kammerer

khaneric , Dominic I haven't tried Nokia 8.3 yet, but Nokia 5.3 doesn't works for me.
Could your provide any detail about display used in 8.3 (manufacturer, type, etc.)?

olgomar

degen My S20 FE is the 5G model ()Australian) with the Snapdragon 865.
Just updated to Android 11 last night.
Also have been testing DeX mode (works like a PC with keyboard and mouse) via a Heymix 8in1 USB-C dock and my usable Philips 328B 32 inch screen, appears to work well.

Quad43

iOS 14.4 better for anyone?

degen

Next experiment:
iPhone 11
Not usable.. this is my first experience with XR/11. So this is similar to the S20 FE strain where the dominant trigger is changing focus to different text elements on the screen. It is felt predominantly in my left temple (my left eye is my dominant eye and basically every accomodation and traveling event is initiated by that eye) I believe it's due to overzelous font smoothing / subpixel rendering to make a (relatively) lower DPI display looks super Retina. Since my iPhone SE 2020 (which is not great, but much more usable in comparison to either of those phones) has much cruder and blockier/older looking fonts but the same DPI as the iPhone 11.

I believe subpixel rendering and flicker around fonts creates trouble tracking fonts with my eyes.. Following letters and other bordered elements on these devices and some software is painful. Fonts and relevant rendering is a big deal.

I thought iOS had better font rendering cause recent Android has been so awful. But it's phone dependent. iPhone 6s+/7+/8+ has good fonts.. iPhone SE 2020 based on iPhone 8 seems so crystal clear compared to the iPhone 11 though. How did they mess up so bad on a phone that has similar PPI? I really think that Apple is correct that people think these super blurry fonts are space age. My girlfriend actually remarked that the iPhone 11 display looks so Retina... It actually looks way worse than her 6s+.

I think it still comes down to flicker/dithering, but it seems that the flicker and dithering is worst on the edges of the fonts. I swear someone on the forum was able to demonstrate that with different rendering in the major web browsers. Was that you @Seagull ?

@Sunspark You are very discerning when it comes to fonts. I believe you decided on Galaxy A70 despite the slighly low(er) DPI, finding the fonts quite legible? I am having trouble tracking text with my eyes on these devices..

The iPhone SE is fine and all for occassional use, but I am always looking for something else, especially a larger display and bigger battery.

Seagull

degen

Wasn't me, but some dithering algorithms do behave differently at the interface between two colours.

https://imgur.com/kWw3Rkl
from https://ledstrain.org/d/895-gpu-dithering

If you look at the edges its spikier for some colours - meaning its dithering at a different frequency.

Would be real interesting to get one of those phones that can output a HDMI signal and capture it.

Sunspark

degen It is true what you say, I do pay a lot of attention to things like hinting, etc. The fonts on my device are very crisp and I will make a font suggestion. I found iPhone devices to have blurrier fonts in general due to the way Apple does things but there is also model variation. I do make changes from the defaults though keeping in mind that sometimes it is just the device that is problematic. Here are a list of changes to make assuming you were holding my exact A70 device on Pie: in display settings "Font size and style" move font size blue slider all the way to the left to be able to count properly then move it two clicks to the right from that position. For Font style, change it, I have "HelveticaNeue" there, and yes I paid for it from the google play store using my free credits it's only like $2 who cares but if you want to do a free one first, Samsung Sans is decent but Helvetica Neue is better (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.monotype.android.font.helveticaneue&hl=en_US&gl=US). Then in display settings under "Screen Zoom" have the blue slider in the exact middle of the range. Ironically, doing all this will make it look like an iPhone or M8. Then for screen brightness that is for comfort, a good way to adjust it is on a webpage with lots of small text.. you want to adjust it so that the smallest text is sharpest this is usually going to be in the 50% brightness zone and whites should look "neutral" as a result not too dim, not too bright (for videos you'll want it brighter though). During the daytime I don't use dark mode or blue light filter, but I do in the evening/night. For blue light I usually have it one click to the left from the starting point of the slider furthest to the right (in part because often I'm in complete darkness for this). When you're in pitch black, you'll have to adjust the brightness to be just a smidge above the lowest setting. Yes, you will see some flicker on scrolling, but in dark mode it's not as noticeable. Use the Samsung Internet Browser too, it has a very good dark mode and knows to auto-activate when the system mode is on as well, and you can control this separately.

The font used does matter. Hinting issues from font to font aside, I do the same thing with my PC and know exactly what you mean by tracking. Some are too round, some are too narrow, some are too squat, etc. So for example in Windows, I have to get the scaling right. So on my 2048x1152 monitor (comparable to 1920x1080) 23"-24" I have Windows set to 150% scaling and on top of that inside a wordprocessor like LibreOffice I have the scaling inside that application at 110% and then I pick specific fonts from there and I also made my own themes too, I don't use the stock white background.

The glasses you wear matters too. Did you know that when you get a glasses prescription, you can also specify a zoom range? Guess what? The new glasses I got recently, I only wear them outdoors not indoors. Why? Because I said I want them for distance viewing and that I would get reading glasses separately (though progressive lenses would have been an option too). Well, turns out on the new glasses with text at PC and TV viewing distances, my left eye is crisp, and my right eye is blurry. They also seem to make everything slightly smaller at closer ranges due to a telescope type effect. So as a result, I use my old glasses indoors which is annoying to me, but live and learn. This was a new opto, and my old one which retired used to ask how far away is the object you work with the most and I didn't remember that until my mother reminded me (who went to the same person). So sometimes, it is also the damn glasses with the wrong zoom!

Edit: Degen, I added two screenshots here so you can see better what the output looks like, first one is just the main settings pane, and the second one is this post in "mobile" view. It'll look sharper on a smaller screen. Settings app and Mobile view of this post

[deleted]

degen I'm a new iPhone 11 user here, can't use it and have to sell it. So sad. I also think that iPhone 11 display panel is of a lower standard than earlier ones. If you put an 11 next to an 8, the difference is night and day. Maybe Apple did something to try to make the iPhone 11 display look better, Idk, but it is a real headache for me.

degen

@neca980 Did you get a chance to try Galaxy A71? We seem to have similar response to devices.

neca980

degen No, I did not yet, I would like to try it first in a store after lockdown.

Dominic

kammerer I don't know much about its display, but it's IPS TFT not using PWM (according to notebookcheck)

degen

Testing Huawei P40 Lite (LCD panel). So far, not bad, still need much more time for testing. Definitely better than iPhone 11 and Samsung S20 FE (Snapdragon) for me personally. Very nice fonts on the Huawei. Very interested in checking out the Huawei P40 next (non-Pro, non-Lite), which is confirmed to use exclusively BOE OLED panel. I would prefer P40 Pro, but it has 3 panel manufacturers. One of my other good devices, my Huawei Mate 20 Pro, has a BOE panel.

As an aside, the only other device I can use besides the Mate 20 Pro (and an aging OnePlus 3), is an iPhone SE 2020, OK for short usage periods only, and the only remotely usable smartphone (for me) which Apple still produces.

"eBook Mode", a well done grayscale setting on the Huawei, is especially nice. Similar to Wind Down on Samsung phones.

Losing Google Services on the phone is not a big deal for me, and I block as many connections to Huawei in Blokada. Using Bromite as my primary app to access internet services.

One final thing, every OS that offers it, I now engage Protanomoly / Protanopia (Red-Green filter. Thanks for the recommendation @reaganry). It seems to make a difference.

Out of my recent experiments, I rate them: P40 Lite (the magnitude of superiority still needs a lot of testing) > iPhone 11 > Samsung S20 FE (Snapdragon) > Nord N10 (what a disaster of a phone for me, inducing myoclonic jerk-like sensations).

I would love to try the Nokia 8.3, but the Nokia shop does not ship to Canada, and the price on Amazon CA is sadly very inflated.

P40 Lite info: JNY-LX1
C432 - EU region code
Build 10.1.0.261 (I believe it shipped with an earlier build which you can fiddle with to get Google Services on if you wish)
Running at 2310 x 1080, "Smart Resolution" disabled
Dark Mode on
Colours on Normal (vs Vivid)
Colour filter as described above
Not using "Eye Comfort" (blue light filter)

kammerer

degen Very interested in checking out the Huawei P40 next (non-Pro, non-Lite), which is confirmed to use exclusively BOE OLED panel

Could you share details (how it confirmed)?

degen

P40 Lite gave me a migraine.

degen

kammerer

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Who-made-the-display-on-the-Huawei-P40-Pro-Not-Samsung-apparently.459645.0.html

While BOE may have made the displays on the P40 Pro, it would appear that the company didn't supply all the displays. A teardown by Financial Times has revealed that both LG and BOE supplied Huawei with displays for the P40 Pro. This isn't the first time Huawei has sourced display panels from the two companies, as the Mate 20 Pro also sported displays by LG and BOE. The regular P40, on the other hand, only features displays made by BOE.

degen

Nokia 8.3 is on sale at B&H Photo for $379.99. Need some returns to process currently before I can test it. Hope the sale is still on when I'm ready.

jrhack

degen Why that Nokia? I can't find much detail on the display, but it appears to be IPS...? I'd be happy to try it out if there's a chance it's comfortable to look at. I'm approaching "desperate need" for a new phone as I'm still on the Samsung Galaxy S3. In 9 years I haven't found another comfortable phone to look at. 🙁

degen

jrhack

It's a modern Android smartphone with a (supposedly, notebookcheck is less accurate than we had assumed) PWM-free display, which pretty much warrants investigation these days. @khaneric and @Dominic had preliminary success with it.

Some users having success with a device overall increases the chances it may be OK, but far from guarantees it. We are not a heterogeneous group and have different triggers. PWM is only one potential trigger (and some people can tolerate certain implementations). We also think that a lot of supposedly flicker-free devices have flicker in the form of dithering, LCD inversion, font rendering shenanigans... This is why it quickly become very expensive trying many devices. Make sure you are aware of return policies and shop accordingly.

There is a chance it may be comfortable to look at. In my experience, there is a slim chance any device will work even with positive references. That's how bad things have gotten with this technology. Be prepared to go through many devices until you find one that works. If I had the cash available and possibility to return it, I would have already tried the Nokia 8.3.

Peter

jrhack On the site it says Nokia 8.3 5G received Low Blue Light certification from TÜV Rheinland. Maybe this plays a role?
Like Dell that now uses eyesafe.com technology.

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