Utterly lost for words... So my friend to whom I had sold my Gigabyte GTX 970 Gaming G1 bought a new graphics card a few days ago, and so I thought I'd get my card back from him as I didn't get strained by it, and it was still a good card. I have used this card for over 10 years. I have never had burning eye sensations, nauseous feelings or this horrid level of eye strain from it. I slam it in, and it is straining me so bad I have been close to vomiting twice. What on gods earth is freaking going on here?! :"( I am truly lost for words. Right now I have a Zotac GT 1030. This card is years newer than the GTX 970, and it doesn't give me the slightest eye strain. How is this freakin possible?! The thing that is crazy is I can see banding everywhere. I don't even freakin know what nvidia is making these cards dither for.

BloodyHell619 I have some ideas, but unfortunately seeing how I don't have a "bad" NVIDIA cared nor a test system in my lab at the moment, that is a problem for research. What I think could be the case is internal VBIOS settings and potentially per unit variance could impact the digital output quality of the GPU. Meaning not all cards of a certain series are blanket "bad". In addition certain differences between driver versions, motherboard firmware initializing the card and OS could influence things. But without the resources to test, it's just informed speculation

BloodyHell619 As I mentioned earlier it may depend on what has already been installed up to this point. https://ledstrain.org/d/1524-eye-strain-with-new-gpu/132 it makes sense to check on a clean system and also possibly experiment with the motherboard bios and drivers. Windows To Go I think it will be good chose https://ledstrain.org/d/2236-windows-to-go-is-a-good-way-to-test-builds I agree that it is a crime for nvidia to make and support a product this way. For example they definitely lost one customer in the form of me.

BloodyHell619 Make sure all those aspects are unchanged from the time this gpu didn't strain you : windows version (if possible with exactly the same drivers for everything not just gpu, and same feature and quality updates). I had cases where a windows version would look bad on a gpu-mobo and better on another gpu-mobo. exact same mobo (i mean the exact same not only the same model). Also same other components (memory and so on…) exact same screen same gpu driver same display port or hdmi cable depending on what you use same bios and firmware versions Try to clear the cmos to reset the bios to its original state and see if it makes a difference.

My question exactly: iare you using exactly the same setup as you used to use with it? At least HW wise? Is at least the same mobo?

machala T Liberator005 The exact same hardware as before! Exact same mobo, CPU, power, monitors, cables, … My bios and windows are definitely updated from then and so are my drivers it would be quite some hell to figure out what driver and Windows version I was using, and it just doesn't make sense to me that the 1030 isn't straining me while the 970 is. What's even more horrid is that I tried the dual GPU method where I plug my monitors into my 1030 and let my 970 do the workload and what happens is that even when I set my 1030 as the "high performance" card so that in the Windows environment the 970 doesn't do anything my eyes were still straining!! Like simply having that card in the system was making it dither! I tried adding these two lines to the registry DP_DisableDither TMDS_DisableDither and setting their value to 1 which from this article I read should disable dithering: https://docs.teradici.com/knowledge/how-do-i-turn-temporal-dithering-amd-graphics-card What was interesting was that after I added these and opened up "Calibration Tool", Enabling/Disabling dithering from there made no difference to the colour gradient. So these codes are definitely disabling some kind of dithering, but the card was still straining me like hell. The strain was maddening, I think it even makes my blood pressure go up. This morning I woke up with such eye strain, dizzy feeling and high blood pressure that I almost wanted to call my friend and have him come pick me up and take me to the hospital. My head feels like It's exploding right now. I pulled the card out and am gonna let my eyes rest a little and maybe do some more testing. I might try installing an older diver. I'm really starting to get the impression that something has gone wrong with me. I mean first my Galaxy Note 5 which I was using for 8 years and I could no longer use without massive strain after board replacement and now my 970. Could it be that once you use a device that has horrible dithering like the disgusting 3000 series graphic card line-up your eyes start seeing dithering, and they could no longer unsee it? I know I used to get eye strain from my Galaxy Note 5 and even the 970 back then, but it was only after days and days and days of 24 hour use. And it was never this kind of burning sensation or nauseousness. Just simple eye fatigue. I'm going to take my question onto Microsoft forums and Nvidia. This is really crazy, we would really have to start living in the jungle if this is the path that pretty much every tech company is starting to take. For now, I am going to spend a few days behind my system with the 1030 and this latest driver. If the strain goes on, I will try an older driver. If it is really a driver matter, it would be even more horrid. That means even the stuff that work for us will become outdated. The new Last of Us remake which actually crashes like crazy with the latest Nvidia driver (v531.41) gives a warning that my driver is outdated if I have anything lower installed.

I have an alternative explanation for everyone to consider. I keep a lot of my old hardware for spares, backups and the like. Its fairly common for me to return to an older device and find it causes me symptoms when previously it was fine. I do not believe the hardware has changed, but I know I have. My eyes and brain are getting older, whatever defect causes me these symptoms has either worsened, or my brain is less able to adapt to it. When I was a teenager I could recover from a bad migraine in hours, now in my thirties it takes days. Its a normal part of aging, the older you are, the longer it takes you to learn and for your brain to adapt and recover. Perhaps when you were younger, your brain could adapt to your GPU before you experienced symptoms. I know this opinion will be unpopular with many here, but it underpins how I treat my own problems. Knowing the problem is within me, I don't look for the problems with devices and software to fix. I instead consider, what can I do to help myself adapt to this device. Exercise stimulates the growth of new brain cells, so when I need to try to adapt to a new phone, I sit on an exercise bike whilst using it. previously it used to take me 6months of suffering to be able to use new phones without headaches and migraines. Now, with my exercise bike trick it takes me just a few weeks and much less pain. I found what I eat can have a big impact on my symptoms and health in general. Through trial and error I found that my body really doesn't like red meat, diary and other more specific things. I cut those things out of my diet many years ago and found that my screen intolerances stopped worsening. Infact, for the last three years my screen intolerance has actually been improving. I am hopeful that in another few years I will no longer have any issues with screens at all. So my advice for you, and everyone else. Focus your attention on yourselves, not the tech, and see how it works out. See specialists in eye health, see what you can do to improve your brain health, look at your diet.

BloodyHell619 It's also worth noting that it's hard to recognize a successful configuration for the eyes after a heavy, traumatic mode of work with. The eyes are already a little traumatized and disturbed and it seems that everything is bad, it takes time to recover, and you should not rush to conclusions. As an example, in order to assess the difference between the spirits are advised to smell the coffee.

Seagull To be honest with you, I am coming closer and closer to agreeing with you too. For me, after witnessing the strain from the 970 only 2 other theories remain: 1- The newer Nvidia drivers are making the cards dither. I will be able to tell this in a few days, if the 1030 strains me too with this new driver. 2- As I said in the previous post, maybe once you experience a very low PWM or really bad dithering or maybe by simply becoming too aware of their presence your brain can no longer unsee them, and it starts to focus on them no matter what, causing you unbearable strain. If this is true, it is pretty scary and could mean it might be irreversible. If these two theories of mine get thrown out of the window, honestly, only your explanation could be true. I have to admit, since the pandemic, I barely go out of the house ever. So it could not only be the fact that we have come to age and our brains are struggling to adapt, but it could be that too much focus on the screen and being in a small room for so long with the same life day after day has intensified my focus on these screens. Since as long as I remember, I got pretty bad eye-aches and headaches from bad screens. If my friends came over to play Fifa after 2 or 3 days of playing, I would get such massive eye strain and headaches that I would have to go in the room and tie my head up and sleep for a few hours to be able to play again. But that eye-ache and headache never came with burning and dull eyes, nauseous feelings, such horrible depression. So there is definitely something wrong with these devices, and we definitely aren't just crazy. I, too, have been trying to adapt myself with my Note 5 specially by trying to differ my focus from locking on the screen, I also try to go out of the house into our front yard and have my gaze on farther distances, do more exercises and have been trying to get out of my room, head and the screens in front of me more often in hopes of being able to adapt again. There's literally not a single new device that not making use of these techs. Our options are getting thinner and thinner. I'm gonna have my mom also try and contact a doctor in our capital city and see if maybe he can come up with any better explanations. The doctors here have literally never even heard about such things. It's like alien language to them. I'm wondering if it could have anything to do with having high blood pressure.

CepheiHR8938 I also want to add that I do not believe in the strong effect of dithering on eye strain, all my experiments prove otherwise. That it has almost no effect. There is some flickering going on here. And the flicker is not the backlight, but the rendering.

BloodyHell619 You need to be careful with thinking that you can't use anymore hardwares that you used to be able to use. Be aware that the software component plays a huge role, just a simple os update or whatever update on your galaxy note 5 may have made it unusable. I had 2 cases where updates made my phones unusable. I think you would be perfectly fine if you could use your hardware/software exactly as they were. But as you can see, software constantly updates and it's super hard to get the exact state you had. I have my laptop right now, and according to the nvidia driver I use, I get differently bad symptoms. 3 drivers, 3 symptoms or different sensations. From acceptable to untolerable according to the driver. There is another thread where someone couldn't use his setup anymore. It turned out it was just a Google Chrome update. Even websites have their own way of image processing. Look at youtube for example and see how more saturated it is. I remember youtube changed for me like some months ago. See the difference between an image looked on bing or on google. Open a white page (for ex google home page) in microsoft edge, google chrome, and firefox, place them side by side and observe by yourself the difference in white tone, the reds and so on.

Got back GTX 970 I used for 10y with no sever strain! Now.. Horrendous strain!

async

Switched lightning setup in the room since the last time it worked fine? Move the computer by the window, test the devices outside.

In my experience (from Mac at least) you can test with a lot of stuff by simply disabling hardware acceleration in Chrome and using that full screen for a while.

BloodyHell619

async Switched lightning setup in the room since the last time it worked fine? Move the computer by the window, test the devices outside.

Sadly it still strains me massively in day light and with no lights on at all.

AgentX20 Any chance you could dig out an older firmware for your video card and refresh things at that level? (They can be rather hard to find these days, and it is complicated by some cards having not one but two VBIOS slots).

Honestly I even tried flashing VBIOS's of other cards onto my card but it still made no difference.

So I had my brother bring me a CPU with integrated GPU compatible with "Ditherig", a Ryzen 5700G CPU hoping that I could disable the dithering using "Ditherig" but it made no difference. I am in utter aw and broke as hell. Whatever the heck is going on is at the motherboard level. The strain is also definetly there even in the bios screen. But What I don't get is why does my GT 1030 strain me when used in another system?

It feels so stupid to have to go and buy the exact same motherboard again. And there's so many factors to take into account as to how to set it up then. I'm really fucked up. Should I put my old CPU in it or my new one? Should I buy a new GT 1030 too? What a freakin hell of a situation….

I also used a microscope my brother brought me on my monitor to check for dithering and it clearly is dithering horrifically. Can't post the video here.

Tried the same monitor paired with my dads old laptop that doesn't dither and the monitor wasn't dithering.

I could almost see the screen dither and when I read text on it for many seconds afterwards I see after-images, horizontal lines crawlling down everywhere I look.

glvn

Lauda89

Then I upgraded the BIOS on the old motherboard with the intent of putting a 5800 on it and it became inusable as well, even going back through the BIOS.

I'm not entirely clear, did you manage to return to the old BIOS version?

could you please tell me the motherboard model, old bios version and new bios version?

Lauda89

glvn The MB is the Crosshair VI Hero. The BIOS that fuck up my good setup was the 8701, then i roll back to the 8002 (the starting point) and then i tried to roll back to something old like 1701 or something like that, i don't remember in this moment. Are you able to find the difference between 8701 and 8002? 🙂

async

Should be possible to downgrade the firmware on the gfx card.

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/how-to-recover-from-a-bad-video-bios-flash.265939/

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/?architecture=&manufacturer=&model=GTX+770&interface=&memType=&memSize=&since=

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/?architecture=Uploads&manufacturer=&model=GTX+970&interface=&memType=&memSize=&since=

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/nv-uefi-update-x64/

glvn

Lauda89

then i roll back to the 8002 (the starting point) and then i tried to roll back to something old like 1701 or something like that

return to the old bios returned (normalized) the situation with eye strain?

Are you able to find the difference between

unfortunately no 🙁 I'm just trying to understand: if the version of the main BIOS affects eye strain, is it possible to definitely fix the situation by returning to the old BIOS?

for example, on the Intel platform, an unambiguous return to the previous version (by regular means) is not always possible: https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Pro4/index.asp#BIOS

"* User will not able to flash previous BIOS once upgrading to this BIOS version."

As I understand it, this is due to updating ME (Intel Management Engine) as part of the BIOS. What is the analogue of ME in AMD and whether this component affects eye strain is an open question for me ..

Lauda89

glvn No that PC is still not usable for me unfortunately. So now i am using the new PC 13700K+RTX 4070+W11 21H2 with patching my right eye, and is almost ok but still not usable with 2 eyes.

To downgrade the bios, I followed this guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwJS8-GTgRU

Using AFUDOS!

async

BloodyHell619 How about the power supply? Try plugging the computer and monitor directly into the wall if you're using some kind of multi extension cord.

Also consider trying a higher or lower monitor cable, test display port vs hdmi if available, or try changing hdmi or display port version on the monitor or bios. After digging into EDID and display driver suff on Mac I realized just how many different types of compression and changes can happen there, based on what bandwith or capabilities the graphics card and os thinks are worthwhile to use.

CepheiHR8938

BloodyHell619 Yeah, I confirm, I have faced with the same effect. As soon as I update motherboard painful BIOS or insert "infectious" video card and then I cant repair normal state as before. The only thing that helps is to restore previous state regarding components and firmware and then reinstall windows|OS and in doing so, you have to disable update system even down to disconnecting any kinde of network.

BloodyHell619

You know what I'm just thinking now? Maybe it wasn't the dual GPU trick that fucked up my system in the first place. I got my gtx 970 back from my friend and so the card was on his system with a very recent mobo. maybe his goddamn mobo infected the card and it got passed on to my mobo. If there is 1 thing thats for sure now its that the mobo is the god damn defect.

BloodyHell619

async I have tried all that mate. Nothing worked. different PC with different power supply, different screen, different outlet, ….

ensete

maybe his goddamn mobo infected the card and it got passed on to my mobo

That is not possible.

A BIOS upgrade itself won't do anything to a video card. However an upgrade can change settings. Have you gone through every page and tried every setting in the Bios? particuarly anything to do with PCI-e timing or anything related to video card voltages

AgentX20

I've been getting various messages from a couple of games about how my vulcan graphics driver was too old (Win 10 1511, 970 card and driver version 391.55). Now this has been a good strain-free setup for a long time now, apart from it starting to age out re various bits of software and eye strain with a few Unity games.

But I've got backups… so I thought just this one time I'd try a newer driver… 411 something… uh-oh eye strain feelings detected. So I pushed on trying another even newer driver version 441.12 or similar. It still felt a bit off - those games were running though.

Sadly after a couple of days I knew this wasn't going to fly with creeping eye strain. Next, I rolled back with a bare metal restore from backup. And… it STILL felt off. Yikes. I've tried a few more sessions and the eye-strain is definitely there and significant.

Everything's exactly the same as a week before my driver shenanigans. But now there's eye strain. You start to wonder what those newer drivers did to my graphics card.

So all I can try now is a full ground up reinstall of 1511… (fingers crossed)

I really am my own worst enemy. I KNEW I shouldn't have messed with my setup. But sometimes you can't help but get so damn tired of all the eye strain everywhere and not being able to run big screens, big graphics cards, and better mobos/cpus.

But it DOES make you wonder what kinds of settings can 'stick' on your graphics card, much as has been discussed in this thread.

glvn

Liberator005

Maybe the dithering setting is just hardwired in the gpu hardware ?

Maybe … BUT, AgentX20 say:

(Win 10 1511, 970 card and driver version 391.55). Now this has been a good strain-free setup for a long time now

I've got backups…

just this one time I'd try a newer driver… 411 something… uh-oh eye strain feelings detected

Next, I rolled back with a bare metal restore from backup. And… it STILL felt off.

I've now done a ground up OS installer rebuild of my PC - exact same hardware and using the same Win 10 1511 OS installer as was working OK for me before. … Sadly, I am still getting bad eye strain.

I did try reflashing both VBIOS with the same version so see if that helped but no joy there.

…seems like dithering was not originally hardwired

This is just my guess, but this is how I imagine the sequence of changing dithering as a variable for the programmer:

a) the initial value of the variable from the video bios (or video chip hardware), in old cards is not set or is set as OFF

b) a variable in the uefi nvram of the motherboard, the initial value is inherited from point a) or is forcibly set to ON by “new” motherboards because it is useful for “image beauty”. This can try to explain the fact that “good” video cards perform “good” on old MBs but “bad” on new ones (including even before loading the OS).

c) a graphics pipeline consisting of the OS(version), graphics driver, DWM, registry, color profile settings and M$ knows what else…. Or perhaps it inherits the initial dither value from b), or perhaps new operating systems are simply forced to be set to ON for “image beauty” on modern cheap (6-bit) monitors. This can try to explain why dithering is enabled more often on “new” OS/drivers. Why the state of the variable is then stored in b), (if this is at all possible), I cannot explain. This is all despite the fact that MS/Nvidia technical support denies the very fact of dithering.

.. too many "perhaps" (

AgentX20

So I've now done a ground up OS installer rebuild of my PC - exact same hardware and using the same Win 10 1511 OS installer as was working OK for me before.

Sadly, I am still getting bad eye strain. The eye strain is even evident on a pure 1511 install before ANY (1511 related) patches are installed.

I am now utterly convinced that a new Nvidia driver HAS changed something fundamental in my graphics card.

I did try reflashing both VBIOS with the same version so see if that helped but no joy there.

I'm dejected… and my only hope is that one of my spare 970s doesn't exhibit the same problems. Trouble is they're in live PCs that are running the newest graphics drivers, so I'm not optimistic.

glvn

AgentX20

Sadly, I am still getting bad eye strain.

I did try reflashing both VBIOS with the same version so see if that helped but no joy there.

I have one stupid, weakly reasoned idea 🙁

Reflash the MB BIOS (not VGA) at least to the same version. Some people in this forum claimed that flashing the MB BIOS to an older version helped them. I assume that it could have helped them not to reflash the old version firmware, but the flashing procedure itself (this is based on my old experience, when the firmware update procedure could additionally clear the service areas of the BIOS, like DMI...)

This is a very big assumption for modern UEFI BIOS, but I have no other assumptions: where which ones can be saved settings when completely reinstalling the OS.

To be completely sure of the purity of the flashing, it would be a good idea to buy a clean BIOS chip and flash it on a hardware programmer (this is a lot of trouble, don't go down this path if you haven't done something like this before). This may be necessary, since I am almost sure that updating the BIOS in the standard way is does not provide a 100% guarantee of rewriting all UEFI modules/areas. I don’t know if I was able to convey the main idea with my English...

JTL

glvn To be completely sure of the purity of the flashing, it would be a good idea to buy a clean BIOS chip and flash it on a hardware programmer (this is a lot of trouble, don't go down this path if you haven't done something like this before). This may be necessary, since I am almost sure that updating the BIOS in the standard way is does not provide a 100% guarantee of rewriting all UEFI modules/areas. I don’t know if I was able to convey the main idea with my English...

You're not crazy. I know for a fact in some cases internal settings of the firmware can be persistent across supposed resets, so I wouldn't be surprised if software based flashing doesn't clear everything either.

AgentX20

glvn Reflash the MB BIOS (not VGA) at least to the same version.

I'm not optimistic but it's worth a shot. Thanks for the suggestion.

glvn

JTL

in some cases internal settings of the firmware can be persistent across supposed resets

is this fact from the "world of x86" hardware?

what year is it approximately? (UEFI or BIOS)

JTL

glvn is this fact from the "world of x86" hardware?

Yes

what year is it approximately? (UEFI or BIOS)

Hard to say. I think it's a generic property of certain UEFI BIOS's, so starting sometime past 2010 would be my best guess.

glvn

Liberator005

I'm trying to logically understand where the dithering setting can be saved if a clean reinstallation of the operating system does not help with this (and reflashing the VBIOS too).

NVRAM - suitable place for this

AgentX20

"Load BIOS defaults" or ClearCMOS in modern UEFI BIOS should perform some kind of cleaning of the nvram, but I’m not sure that a complete cleaning of this area is performed. You can try this before reflashing MB bios.

"I am still getting bad eye strain" Is there this feeling on the UEFI BIOS setup screen?

BloodyHell619

@AgentX20 Oh boy do I feel you mate. You cannot belive how much I wish I could go back to that day when I stuck that wrecked 970 into my system. My life has been a total wreakage since then. And a huge peice of advice DO NOT STICK ANY OTHER CARD IN THAT SYSTEM. Every card I have put in that system now dithers even if I put it in aonther system!! You will be stuck in a cycle like me infecting card after card, PC after PC. I have tried every possible BIOS version that works with my CPUs on my PC and the horrific dithering is still there. I am convinced that there is now one and only one solution and that is to buy the exact same mobo and vga and replace my infected ones. I do not know what the fuck NVIDIA has done, how the fuck they have made this shit stick so hard in our systems. I messaged them again the other day about this issue and begged them to give me a solution. I even begged them to just tell what in my PC has gotten infect so I could replace it. They no longer even respond. The issue was marked as "researching" for weeks and then it just got flared as "unresolved" without even a word of reply.

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