Interesting info from Wikipedia re S-PVA:

"Less expensive PVA panels often use dithering and FRC, whereas super-PVA (S-PVA) panels all use at least 8 bits per color component and do not use color simulation methods.[citation needed]S-PVA also largely eliminated off-angle glowing of solid blacks and reduced the off-angle gamma shift. Some high-end Sony BRAVIA LCD TVs offer 10-bit and xvYCC color support, for example, the Bravia X4500 series. S-PVA also offers fast response times using modern RTC technologies.[citation needed] "

So S-PVA seems to positively affect two points discussed here often. Dithering and response time. Of course that doesn't mean a GPU cannot dither, just that the displays don't use it natively. But I guess since this is a laptop panel we are talking about the GPU is in charge not some external monitor's software.

This is one of the PCs which I can use fine. Before I list the others, could someone tell me if the info below are useful / all it is needed? Thanks!

Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4160 CPU @ 3.60GHz (4 CPUs), 3.6GHz
Operating System: Windows 7 Professional 64-bit (6.1, Build 7601) Service Pack 1 (7601.win7sp1_gdr.151230-0600)
Card name: Intel(R) HD Graphics 4400
Monitor Model: DELL E2416H
Native Mode: 1920 x 1080(p) (60.000Hz)
Current Mode: 1920 x 1080 (32 bit) (60Hz)

    AGI Thanks for listing. Think this is very interesting.
    You could leave out the detailed CPU info but would be great to add "connection to the screen" like VGA, HDMI, ... ,graphics driver version and if possible panel type of the display (but interested people could also find it online).

    • AGI replied to this.

        deepflame Thanks for your prompt notes, and pardon my non-expert questions. I used dxdiag to pull info out. Does Driver Version: 10.18.14.4280 sound correct for the graphics driver? How about the panel type of the display? I can't find it in the dxdiag file...
        I had thought about the connection to screen after reading recent posts...I assume "visual inspection" is the only way?
        Thanks!

        EDIT: Are the below details useful? What is the output type listed under Display Devices?
        Monitor Id: DELA0C9
        Output Type: HD15

            AGI

            AGI Does Driver Version: 10.18.14.4280 sound correct for the graphics driver?

            I think so. You may confirm this in the graphics driver settings itself. Usually the version is mentioned there as well.

            AGI How about the panel type of the display?

            Have not found a place in any OS as well. Usually this is found on the internet in spec sheets. If this is hard to find, it's ok. We can also look for it 🙂

            AGI I assume "visual inspection" is the only way?

            Hmm, I don't have my Windows machine up and running atm also because it gives me strain. Do you mean with which frequency the screen is driven or?

            AGI EDIT: Are the below details useful? What is the output type listed under Display Devices?
            Monitor Id: DELA0C9
            Output Type: HD15

            Not for me at least.

            • AGI replied to this.

                        deepflame Hmm, I don't have my Windows machine up and running atm also because it gives me strain. Do you mean with which frequency the screen is driven or?

                        Nope, sorry. I took dx_diag files from multiple computers I have been using. They are all located in different offices / different buildings. Since I did not check on the type of connection PC-to-screen, I was wondering whether I can recover that info from the log files. But I doubt it is the case. No worries, I will have a few walks :-)
                        Thanks also on the rest!

                        EDIT: in one dx_diag I read Output Type: HDMI and I know the connection is HDMI, so that info should be in the log too...

                            deepflame I still cannot open VisualStudio Code or Firefox because of some weird OpenGL mode (I gues

                            What is your speculation as to why OpenGL modes would make things usable vs not, especially on an otherwise OK setup?

                                hpst OpenGL is just a common denominator for graphics APIs often used for cross platform graphics development. So my thought is to start there. But you are right, I guess it can also be a different API like DirectX or now Vulcan that can trigger the same effect.

                                My hope is that the freedesktop guys have a tool to read GPU state to compare before and after.

                                  AGI Just installed Windows on a VM and found dxdiag quite useful. Thanks for the input! It just tells me how long I have been off from this DirectX stuff. It reminds me of the "good old" Windows XP days when I fiddled with a 3Dfx graphics card and such 😃

                                  • AGI likes this.
                                    13 days later

                                    chahahc

                                    Just an update.
                                    So It's been about 2 weeks since I've started using the setup from the above previous post. I've tried various lcd monitors, crt, dlp projector, ambient light setups/backlights and this is the least problematic setup I've come across so far. It's slightly worse than reading books on my kindle 4. I would say it has reduced my symptoms around 70%. I don't really get that stinging searing eye strain that feels like you're looking into a light bulb and makes your eyes water and go blurry with this setup. After a bit of use the very cold color temperature of the backlights do indeed make my eyes uncomfortable and makes me feel like squinting but wearing uvex sct orange glasses eliminates that issue. I'd encourage anyone to get one of those cheap 1080p monitors that are frequently on sale for $60-$70 and try this out just for experimentations sake. I did remove the antiglare film on the lcd panel. This setup beats out my modified shimian qh270 which was the previous best lcd even though this hp22es monitor is a 6bit+frc and the qh270 is native 8bit.

                                    Some observations.

                                    The massive blue spike in these monitor leds do contribute to eyes fatigue as my sct orange uvex glasses help. The color temperature is so cold that even looking at the wall illuminated by the leds tends to make me fee like squinting.

                                    Backlights themselves are probably the main cause of my eyestrain/brain fog issues, though not all. I would say it's probably a factor for most other people too since "dark themes" are so popular. Dark themes don't just reduce brightness, they make the lcd panel block the backlight so you're focusing on the lcd panel itself and not the backlight vs normal light themes where the majority of your vision is looking through the transparent lcd panel onto the backlight.

                                    There is indeed something about the lcd panel that just feels "odd" on my eyes. Part of it is probably the dithering of the 6bit panel. I think ppi is also a factor as standing farther back does make the lcd panel easier to look at.

                                        chahahc So you are still getting issues even with using the SCT orange. That tells you there is another problem going on. One variable you are never removing from your tests is eye tracking. Is every setup you run 60 hertz refresh rate? So you get tons of motion blur. Sounds like your problem isn't dithering because of the 6 bit panels you are using. What type of panels are you using TN,VA or IPS? You will get slightly different results with each one. Heck your problem could be LED not producing proper blacks/viewing angles pixel arrangement. LED monitor with a black equalizer could be another thing to try. Also OLED/Plasma/CRT to see what kind of results you get with true blacks. Plasma/CRT = No motion blur something that is really hard to achieve on LED and a major source of eye strain. You can get funky results sometimes with Plasma/CRT with windows so be warned. Especially if it doesn't really recognize the screen in the hardware settings. Phosphor is similar to BFI and at low refresh rates can be problematic. That's why CRT was usually good for most people at about 85HZ and above. I think panel type is a big deal and those cheap 100 dollar panels won't cut it for most people. A lot of new panel types are coming out now with low motion blur and incredible over drive. Features that didn't even exist last year. https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5587
                                        This monitor just got tested by Rtings it's a 240hz and seems to be the best monitor they have ever tested. There was a lot of problems with previous 240hz monitors(1 generation panels)

                                        Here is another one that seems to be really good with reviews and it's just coming out.
                                        https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5508

                                        https://mobilesyrup.com/2019/07/22/lg-ultragear-gaming-monitor-available-for-pre-order-canada/

                                        This LG I think will be a game changer as it's the first of its kind. Lets wait for reviews but It brings the best of both worlds TN's - Speed with IPS's color accuracy. It also uses LG's new panel which has incredible overdrive hopefully lets see reviews first. This panel just came out and what put in there latest TN panel that I currently use with no issues.

                                        You will also generate different results based on what you are doing. Are you playing games? Just using the Internet? Watching movies?

                                        Good luck in your battle.

                                        I suggest if you have the money go to the store buy a panel make a list of possible problems return and try again. I did this for so many panels. I suspect my main problem is Motion Blur possibly no true blacks on LED. PWM but that is easy to solve. Blue light is a problem but turning down the gamma and brightness can usually bring a monitor into a safe zone as long as it isn't one of those crazy 9 000 000 000 nits monitors.

                                          chahahc Another thing I thought of is even if you buy a monitor buy a different company you have to research what panel is it. A lot of these guys use the same panel and sell them to all the companies. That's why all the 240HZ monitors all mostly performed the same. I think the Benq with Dyac was considered the best by Blur Busters. Another example is all the OLED laptops coming out this year are all useless and all the same because they are all supplied by Samsung. As far as I can tell the only one that got slightly tweaked and I bet it's still using PWM like all the rest of them is the Dell one because it has been altered a little to lower the blue light. That's why a lot of new monitors coming out this year are creating excitement as there is new panels in them and we are seeing a lot of improvements over LED's short comings. A lot of people talk about what different connections do to have an effect on people. I'm a big believer that some people on here would show good results with different HDMI versions as there is a difference in the information processed to the screen. HDMI 2.1 could be good for all of us thanks to quick frame transport. https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5518 A lot of it is over my head but I get the jist of it. Also do a search on the differences between HDMI 2 and 2.1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0_qxjt7WtY I think the new LG OLED is the first device to support 2.1 at the moment so we are waiting for another device to connect to it. So someone email Sony to hurry up and release a PS5 with HDMI 2.1. I do believe we have computer monitors with HDMI 2.0 vs Hdmi 1.4 so you probably will get different results there. also I'm aware there is different DVI versions probably another way to get results. Just something else to think about in the millions of problems surrounding screens these days.

                                            Here is the list of screens I can use with zero issues.
                                            Sony Wega CRT KV-20FS120 - I use this for gaming with my retro gaming systems
                                            Yota Phone 2 - Only requirement is it needs to be at 50 percent brightness. (This gives the typical DC dimmed 60 hertz OLED frequency.
                                            Samsung Plasma TV - pn43f4500(2013 Model) I actually have 7 Plasma TV's from Samsung in my house
                                            2 X 2013
                                            1 X 2011
                                            3 X 2012

                                            My 2011 has screen burn and one of my 2012's has a similar issue so they give me issues but before they broke I had no issues. I still use 5 of them with no problems.

                                            LG Ultragear 24GL600F-B - This is my computer monitor I use with no orange glasses or tricks. Black Equalizer on and Over Drive set to fastest and contrast at 55. I can use this thing for hours no issues.

                                            Finally DLP - Going to a movie theatre I have no issues.

                                            A lot of the screens I have mentioned here cost hardly anything compared to what you can pay for a screen these days depending on what you are looking for. All my plasma TV's ranged from 125 CDN to 250 CDN. My CRT Sony Wega I paid 10 dollars. My Yotaphone 2 I paid 220 CDN with shipping. It also has an E-Ink side that is kind of crummy but usable. I don't really use it though just the OLED side. The LG gaming monitor when I bought it was 220 I think. It keeps changing between 220 and 250 CDN. I had a list of all the problems of LED/CCFL and just started trouble shooting every problem I could possibly think of. Now I have 4 types of screens with no issues. I keep studying and I just picked up another CRT monitor that I am testing which I got for free. Lots of stores will allow you to buy a screen and return it which is another great option. I believe any screen you can find will provide clues to your issues. Good luck everyone.

                                            • JTL replied to this.

                                              jasonpicard NCIX used to have a horrible return policy, but they don't exist anymore.

                                              I've heard others claim Amazon is good.

                                              Not sure about Memory Express or Canada Computers.

                                                Canada Computers is great. Staples is great except the monitor selection probably won't help too many people on here. Amazon is great. Best Buy Is awesome. I have bought and returned monitors to all these places many times. I tell them straight up the monitor gives me eye strain and migraines. Never had a problem. Amazon I think you just check a box not sure it's been awhile since I returned one to them.

                                                • JTL replied to this.

                                                  jasonpicard The concern for me using Amazon for monitors is the shipping can be all the way from and to Ontario and that's a bit far and expensive (I'd also be concerned about damage)

                                                  Some other great points though.

                                                    11 days later

                                                    Guys, do you find recent Chrome or Windows 10 versions easier on the eyes? I was amazed that making clean W10 install resurrected my MS Surface Pro usability. It used to cause me nausea just after few seconds of staring at it and it's not doing it anymore in W10 or in Chrome (which I remember to be inferior to Edge in this regard). The issue still exists with older full-sceen games, so it's not something related to "me" (although I have new glasses, which may help). Now I can read webpages for multiple hours and nothing unusual happens. If it's not a general thing, then probably some of my settings was wrong - maybe bad driver, unnecessary color profile (there's no native Surface profile installed now) ...

                                                    • Gurm replied to this.

                                                      andc I don't find that the latest versions are "perfect" but in fact much much better. I've used a few systems for quite a few minutes before going "hey, this is new Win10, isn't it?" and my jump boxes which under 17xx and 18xx versions of Win10 were unusable even in terminal session... are now acceptable again. So I'm going to say 1903 is pretty solid here. It's a lump of trash in many other ways (if I'm wearing my sysadmin hat). But "better". Chrome also got "better". v69/70 were TERRIBLE. Newer versions are pretty ok. Firefox did the same thing. Not sure what keeps changing.

                                                        dev