Laptop: Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga 460 so long as the brightness is above 75% (I generally always have it maxed at 100%)

Monitor: Benq BL2710 2k as the primary monitor.

I am still not completely happy with the laptop and monitor though, but have had them without too many problems for the last 3 years or so.

Phone: LG v30+ which does not appear to give me headaches, (even though testing shows pwm with an unusual waveform) however it is uncomfortable to look at below 40% brightness, where the pwm becomes noticeable.

AGI I would like to stress that in the past I always judged MacBook Air impossible for my eyes, by inspecting displays of friends or at electronic shops. That is another bite of confusion for me, because normally I can immediately tell what does not suit me.

I find this sort of inconsistency so baffling. I spent like an hour in a store with a Matebook D as I wanted to try Rzen to rule out the "intel is bad" theory. It was fine in the store. I bought it...came home and didn't even use it for a day. When I turned it on I got terrible strain within minutes. I cannot explain this. At home I sit by a well lit window...or use incandescent lighting...so if anything it should be BETTER at home than in a store with flourscent tubes. I nearly bought a Macbook Air after a couple hours in Best Buy didn't bother me...but I was hesitant to spend more so waited. A week later in an Apple like 3rd party store just 3min on one strained me. I cannot explain this. Same OS and both stores with flourescent lighting etc.

At this point I am so nervous about displays in general I don't trust my own body as EVERYTHING seems to set off strain so I don't know what is caused by some tech issue, if anything, and what is anxiety/psychosomatic. Even my Kindle was giving me a headache the last time I used it and its NEVER bothered me. That just doesn't make sense. My old CCFL laptop strains me now too....not as much as new ones but still does. I don't get this.

    hpst At this point I am so nervous about displays in general I don't trust my own body as EVERYTHING seems to set off strain so I don't know what is caused by some tech issue, if anything, and what is anxiety/psychosomatic.

    I am 100% behind you on this one. I'm so confused as to what is the actual issue these days as I'm starting to think that my own anxiety about getting headaches and migraines is actually as strong a trigger as the screen I'm using. Sometimes I can use my Dell XPS 15 9560 for most of a day (with some breaks) and feel fine. Others it starts me on to a series of cluster headaches. I've wondered if switching between different screens relatively quickly might cause this - looking at my phone, the TV and then the laptop for example, but even with constant analysis of my own body I just can't explain why sometimes I'm triggered more heavily by the same tech than others.

    I'm at the point where I feel envious of friends and my wife who can just sit on her phone all evening looking at Instagram without any pain, yet I'm unable to work or do the things that I enjoy such as gaming and music production without pain! I'm also concerned that persisting with a Macbook for 2 years has permanently damaged my eyes and this is why I am so sensitive now when only 8 years ago I used to do games development working on screens all day long before playing games all night and never get a headache. Now if I use screens for more than a few hours a day I'm almost guaranteed a headache the next day, which often develops into a series of migraines over several days.

    Anyways, my working setup (which doesn't DEFINITEIVELY work but does mostly as long as I watch my hours):

    Home Computer: Dell XPS 15 9560 running Windows 10 build 1511 + ditherig + Benq V2400W monitor - always gives strain without ditherig but I can use comfortably for a few hours (maybe even a day) with it running

    Studio Computer: i7 8700 with GTX 760 running Windows 10 build 1511 + Benq V2400W monitor - extremely comfortable with no tweaking

    Keep fighting the good fight everyone..

      si_edgey I'm also concerned that persisting with a Macbook for 2 years has permanently damaged my eyes and this is why I am so sensitive now when only 8 years ago I used to do games development working on screens all day long before playing games all night and never get a headache.

      I know its impossible not to worry and I do it too...but I really think this particular fear isn't very likely. If you have physical eye health issues they will impact every part of your life and will be discovered in eye exams...they wouldn't just manifest on certain displays. No rationalization for that makes sense without extreme reaching. I don't know about you but if I avoid displays for a while the strain and headaches go away so that's even more proof there is nothing wrong with me physically.

      Things like "rodents lost retinal cells with blue light" sort of studies just fuel this fear and nothing helpful ever comes out of those anyway. If you've seen an eye doctor and don't have vision problems in every part of your life I think you can put that to bed as much as humanly possible.

        hpst If you've seen an eye doctor and don't have vision problems in every part of your life I think you can put that to bed.

        Thanks for this, I have had a few eye tests and none have found anything - my eyes are pretty much perfect. They probably thought I was weird for being a little disappointed.. :]

          si_edgey Yeah it's disappointing not having an answer...even if that answer is not something we want to be true. I left my last eye doctor's visit sweaty and depressed from all the anxiety. My barrier now is deciding if this is technological or psychological....it's definitely amplified by the fear. Ruling out dithering as a global cause will help me here since that's the only technological theory left with any reasonable probability to it.

          I've learned with other pains and symptoms that often if there is no discernable physical cause with thorough testing it's because there is no physical cause. A lot of people who had flourescent light problems back in the day didn't have them until someone mentioned the flickering etc...or it only bothered them at work in a job they hated but they were fine out having fun. But once you KNOW about a problem you can't let it go even subconsciously. I never had a problem with LEDs in general until I learned about PWM and got a newer laptop already primed for a problem...used to be big into LED flashlights etc but now am afraid to pick one up. When I see a big LED sign or billboard on the road...even whe its far away...I get instant eye pain/headache jabs just looking at it for 1-2 seconds....that's just doesn't really make sense and feels more conditioning than some actual problem.

          Once we see and decide something it's hard to let go of that and the suggesting any pain can be psychosomatic feels like an insult. I am hoping ultimately this IS just psychosomatic since that means we are not just allergic to modern tech or to some setting we cannot really change....but its not easy to get to that point of acceptance and generally requires exhausting reasonable physical causes for our minds to believe it so don't know if I even can get there if nothing physical is proven.

          • diop replied to this.

            si_edgey Maybe the monitors differ somehow. I have two "flicker-free" BenQ EW2740L, and one of them is worse for my eyes. I measured them with my oscilloscope at the same brightness and found they both flicker pretty identically at both 60 Hz (probably the pixel refresh flicker) and 25 kHz. But there is also a third frequency: ~450 Hz on the worse one and ~800 Hz on the better one. Those monitors are not really flicker-free and flicker differently.

            • hpst replied to this.

              KM KM can you test other displays and see if there is any correlation between these spikes and your strain? This is a simple test that would give us good data...if all straining displays have a 450hz spike etc then we have a lead...if it doesn't correlate then it's not the issue. This is a USB oscilloscope with software right? Could you take it to a Best Buy or Media Markt or whatever is in your country and get some broad data? We are seriously lacking in any reproducable data and every good and bad thing anyone has seems random and unexplainable.

              a month later

              hpst

              With regards to anxiety, the fact I am (right now) on a comfortable PC with no symptoms doesn't mean I am anxious about being on a computer, it's the fear that potentially all tech will be unusable for me within the next 5 years (yet is a compulsory part of modern life) that keeps me awake at night.

              We can all stockpile old tech, and there are still some stellar W7 builds that can still be made and we can still utilise 2000-early 2010's specs extremely well - but (if you want to stay online at least), it's not going to last forever.

              I'm in a bit of a moral quandry at the moment; unemployed but want to get back into work, but will computer work in an office become increasingly difficult due to everything being on W10 now and everything flickering/dithering? All medical professionals and optometrists boil it down to eye strain, nobody in a professional capacity is actually acknowledging the link between the modern output and our symptoms.

              Can more be done to push this issue in the public eye (facebook groups, online petitions, spamming support forums🙂). Are there direct insider contacts we can get hold of? Will an open source driver for Windows ever work? All these questions and unfortunately no solid answers yet.

              AGI and please don't update to 10.13.5 or higher. It seems that Apple has changed graphics drivers and rendering. Reverting my machine to 10.13.4 solved a lot of issues for me.

              si_edgey Could you please share how do you use the dell 9560 with the windows 10? How do you keep it from updating, is there a crack, or is it a cracked version? I had one before with old version of win and it was good, but I foolishly returned it.
              Also was installing the older version on it easy?
              I am considering getting one and trying it, but if it doesnt work id still need to return it as its quite expensive, so I must not mess it up.

              2 months later

              Samsung SA850 27' PLS, 0 brightness. It has pwm but a soft one. Gtx 670 Windows 10 latest updates. No issues.

              On work everybody uses 23 HP monitors. I am with old 19 Inches. The new ones kill my eyes.

              Phone: HTC one (Android 5) used to work. Now is not working the phone. No audio.

              Bought a Xperia XZ 2 only usable few minutes a day. If I use it more I have eye pain, and twitches all over the body, especially legs.

              • AGI replied to this.
                19 days later

                tfouto Maybe it does. I wish we had some easy method of testing this.

                a month later

                The more I read the more confused I get about this issue. At work there is a large laboratory with 16 dell p5050 PC`s and Dell p2217 monitors. I can use these with only minimal headache/eyestrain but if I bring one down to my office I get an instant long lasting headache. In the lab using one I am aware of the large surrounding airy space in my peripheral vision but in the office there is a filing cabinet on my immediate left, a wall on my immediate right and a room divider in front of me behind the monitor. Do all of these contribute to my eyestrain/headache?? Are your surroundings and the visual impact of these part of the problem? This might explain why its possible to use a device in a store yet find it gives major problems when you buy it and get it home?

                  tfouto witches all over the body, especially legs.

                  Have you reported this to a medical doctor? In case, any explanation? I thought twitching were limited to eyelids and at the maximum facial muscles...

                    AGI Yes i had. They find it funny, but are clueless about it.

                    Fasciculations.

                    • AGI replied to this.

                      tfouto I guess you found it a bit less funny...

                        AGI Sleep well, is the best thing to avoid it. And bad displays.

                        • AGI replied to this.

                          tfouto Sleep well

                          I buy that. I indeed realize my sleeping pattern has been delirious for ages...

                          dev