osxcool22

BTW,

My 13" 2016 MBP Touch Bar + Windows 10 2004 with 2016 intel drivers (bootcamp default) and ditherig = awesome

Also turned off Intel DPST, no auto brightness, and disabled all video post processing settings in Intel Graphics Settings. Using latest Chrome v125 browser and 200% UI scaling

Importantly, I made sure to disable "advanced power saving for gaming" in Intel Graphics Settings too which seems to be some pseudo-variable refresh rate feature

I had a feeling for a while that the screen hardware in this machine was pretty good (good antiglare coating, comfortable backlight, probably not much pixel inversion, was historically a very good machine for non-text work like graphic design even though working with text felt weird etc.) and it was mainly the macOS software causing it to feel "off" — this pretty much confirms it

Extremely still and flat image on Windows 10, actually one of the most still "high resolution" screens I've used. Totally different than what macOS looks like on here. Also first time I've ever been able to get usable display output out of Intel Iris (instead of HD) graphics

Compared to the previous 2018 MacBook Air (with 8th gen and UHD graphics) I was testing with Windows 10, the 2016 13" is way better — in comparison, the 2018 Air still had a flicker to many colors even with ditherig I could totally notice even though Windows on there was still much more usable than Mac. But with Win10 on the 2016 Pro, everything feels so much more still and flat

Also, I can tell ditherig actually works on the 2016 as toggling from spatial to disabled actually does increase the banding on a gray gradient image by a very slight amount. On the 2018 Air, it was hard to tell if ditherig was even doing anything, but on the 2016 I can actually see the screen change.

The only issue is that the OLED Touch Bar seemingly can't be disabled in Windows (the DimBar Windows app only works on 2018 "T2" Macs and later, not T1 Macs like the 2016), but that seems to be tolerable for me IMO as I'm not looking directly at it despite its heavy PWM. The Touch Bar looks terrible on a slow motion camera, but is weirdly not that bothersome to me, maybe because I got used to it after using this laptop for so long back in 2017-2020.

Side note about my PWM sensitivity in the collapsible block below:

PWM has also been historically much more tolerable to me compared to dithering — on screens at least, although the PWM in LED/flourescent lightbulbs are a huge issue for me. And in this case it's just the OLED Touch Bar, meaning the amount of comfort I'm getting from the main 13" LCD screen I'm actually looking at it kind of "cancels it out" in a way. I can also "get used to PWM" over time in a way I can't at all with dithering which always gets worse over time.

Totally theorizing here, but maybe using an 100% safe dither-free screen but also keeping some PWM in the corner of the eye like the Touch Bar could actually be a form of exposure therapy to PWM? I only say this as I'm noticing my OLED iPhone 14 Pro feels noticeably more comfortable to look at after using the 2016 13" MBP for a while, like in a way where it feels less harsh in those seconds after turning it on. Still ends up straining me and making me feel motion sick if I use the 14 Pro for too long indoors though, but definitely has increased my tolerance to it in some way. PWM screens strain my eyes a lot but don't typically "break my brain" in the way that really bad temporal dithering screens do.


Back to the 2016 13" MBP, did some text heavy work on it yesterday for a few hours, felt very comfortable and I was productive. It's awesome to be able to both work with text and many browser tabs comfortably and also experience the sharpness and vivid colors of a P3 Retina screen, usually those totally conflict with each other but the 2016 with Win10 2004 strikes one of the best balances between reading comfort and beautiful colors that I've experienced on a screen so far

(I admit that I did say this previously about the 2018 Air but I wasn't totally committed to that statement at the time, at that time I was just glad to have something semi-usable. With the 2016 it's different, as I'm now able to directly compare this to all of the "perfect for me" very old devices I've been able to obtain since then. I'm no longer simply saying it's more tolerable than macOS on the same device. The 2016 on Win10 actually manages to get noticeably closer in comfort — compared to many other "modern" screens — to my "truly good" old devices I rely on)

However, the screen did feel too bright at points compared to the really dim screen on my "perfect" 2012 Lenovo Yoga 13 Win8.1 laptop. I already can tell everything looks soooooo much noticeably better and more relaxing on Windows 10 compared to macOS Monterey on the 2016 MBP

(It's hard to beat my 2012 Lenovo as I still have a preference for pixelated low-DPI screens over HiDPI/Retina and the balance of information density and UI size with its 1600x900 LG IPS panel at 13 inches with no need for any scaling is absolute perfection IMO. I can't believe that it's so hard to find 1600x900 at 13" today that's also IPS and not TN, but I digress…

However, I can already tell that the 2016 13" MBP on Win10 2004 has immediately earned its place as one of the good experiences I've had with a HiDPI screen, along with the 2015 12" MacBook)

I agree that your 2016 15" is definitely more usable on native macOS (because I have a 2015 12" MacBook with a similar HD Graphics chip to yours that looks great on macOS Mojave) — but now my 2016 13" is better than it's ever been before as long as I'm using Windows 10 2004 instead of macOS

    DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Used Win10 on 2016 Pro again for longer today and remains great! Screen still feels extremely stable


    By the way, despite my previous post from a few months ago, I no longer reccomend the 2018 MacBook Air for Windows 10.

    This 2016 13" MacBook Pro with Windows 10 is significantly more comfortable for me than the Air with Windows 10 in every possible way. While booted into Windows with ditherig active, this is some of the easiest to read text I've been able to achieve on a HiDPI/Retina screen so far.

    However, I don't reccomend the 2016 13" for macOS despite it being "decent" and something I did in fact use with macOS for years as I mentioned in my first post — since despite it being still "very usable" compared to newer Macs, even back then there was something off and unstable about macOS display output that made it hard to work with long text documents. In macOS it was not "offensively bad" like many other screens are, but far from perfect.

    dither=0 does not work within macOS, the only way to disable dithering on the 2016 13" is to install Windows.

    Windows 10 & ditherig on the 2016 13" fixes all of those issues and I now have a new usable internal display Windows laptop.


    (For reference, the only Retina MacBook I can actually say has a comfortable internal display while booted into macOS is the 2015 12" MacBook with Mojave and boot-args="dither=0" — which actually has observable effects on the 12" unlike many other Macs.

    No other MacBook I've tried has been fully comfortable on the internal display while using macOS itself, as in an entirely stable image, aside from the 2015 12".

    Now, the 2016 13" feels very comfortable too but only when using Windows + ditherig.exe, it still feels odd when booted into macOS.

    Although the "integrated graphics only" version of the 2016 15" mentioned by osxcool22 is worth checking out as it is very similar to the 12" in specs, with HD instead of Iris graphics, and they find it usable.)

    simplex spatial dithering yes, but i don't mind that as on an actually good setup it remains still and doesn't move

    chrome text is easier to read for me than firefox on Windows 10 2004, i tried both

    (although for some reason the opposite is true on my 2015 12" with macOS Mojave, in that case Firefox is much better)

      DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Windows 10 2004

      win10 21H2 build 19044.1889 + Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 120.2212.4180.0

      looks good for me, I now testing it with z690p MB (last BIOS) and iGPU

      not supercalm as w10 1809, but acceptable

        simplex I was thinking of trying 1809, but weirdly enough even though some people here really like it there was a sizeable amount that had a lot of issues with it too, so settled on 2004 instead as some apps I use require 2004 or later.

        I suspect the variation between experiences is because one group is using NVIDIA or AMD dedicated graphics and the other Intel, but couldn't easily figure this out so just went with 2004 instead

        But 2004 has turned out to be a great decision, feels so still and so stable on Iris Graphics 550 with original 2016 Intel graphics drivers. Windows updates and driver updates are now both fully disabled through the Winaero tweaker app

        According to others here, display output on 2004 is different (and better) compared to 21H2

          New finding:

          Devices I've used where "slight brightness drop every frame"-style "PWM-like flicker" at all brightness levels is easily detectable on camera filming a dark gray background at 240hz slow motion:

          • 2015 12" MacBook ✔️ pretty comfortable but still flickers on camera
          • 2012 Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga (LGD0360 panel) ✔️ main device! most comfortable but still flickers on camera
          • 2015 15" Retina MBP (with AMD graphics) NOT comfortable
          • 2022 M2 Air (Stillcolor) NOT comfortable
          • 2020 M1 Air (Stillcolor) surprisingly usable outdoors, but bad compared to better devices indoors

          Devices where this does not occur, which I would consider "PWM-free":

          • 2022 M2 Touch Bar Pro (00000000 Panel + Stillcolor) decent, better than M1 Air
          • 2022 M2 Touch Bar Pro (FMX Panel + Stillcolor) NOT comfortable
          • 2016 13" Touch Bar Pro (Windows 10 2004 + ditherig.exe) ✔️ 👀👀**pretty comfortable AND NO PWM detectable on camera!**👀👀

          (I know that the 2016 Pro still has extremely high frequency PWM at low brightness levels, but as that type of fast PWM cannot be detected on camera at all and can be avoided entirely above ~50% brightness anyway, I don't consider it)

          -

          TLDR: 2016 13" Pro with Windows 10 2004 and ditherig.exe is giving me

          • a very stable image
          • AND does not flicker on dark gray backgrounds in a slow-mo video

          Although there's still something perfect about the 2012 Lenovo panel that makes me extremely productive while working on the screen that I haven't managed to truly replicate on anything else yet…

          …something really interesting is that after using the 2016 Pro, I actually feel better looking around the real world compared to the 2012 Lenovo. Less "washed out" color vision, less "motion blur" looking around, less floaty feeling while walking. Getting up after working feels really easy. This is almost certainly because unlike the Lenovo and 12" MB which still have PWM despite being usable, the 2016 Pro does not show PWM on camera.

          This is my first time noticing this as last time I owned the 2016 Pro, it still definitely strained a bit due to forced dithering on macOS. Now with Win10 2004 and ditherig.exe, I can confirm I'm both getting a very still and stable image (for the first time on this laptop) as well as no "dark gray" PWM on camera.

          I definitely recommend the 2016 13" MacBook Pro as a PWM-free Windows 10 laptop worth trying

          (but not a macOS laptop)

          3 months later

          btw, i recently started using this 2016 13" MBP again

          i5, Iris 550, firmware: 499.40.2.0.0 / os loader: 540.120.3~22 / smc version: 2.37f25 / macOS 12.6.3
          Monterey was installed via an upgrade in 2020, the last wipe + full reinstall was Catalina, if that matters

          even though it has no known dither disable method… (still dithers after adjusting color profile brightness instead of causing banding, even with boot-args dither=0. not sure if spatial or temporal though)

          somehow, this laptop is still shockingly usable on 12.6.3 Monterey. it's the only wide gamut device with the most vivid colors that i can actually use

          also, weirdly enough, it's MORE usable running macOS Monterey than it is running Windows

          (➡️ this means you can ignore my older post about Windows working better, because for some reason in real-world use macOS causes less strain on here, surprisingly)

          BTW, it's PWM-free on camera, which is unique since most Mac laptops have some form of PWM, even from this era — the 2015 15" rMBP and 2015 12" MacBook both show PWM dips on camera at all brightness levels


          in fact, for some reason it's the only laptop where i can work in design software (Figma) at max productivity without any brain fog or trouble focusing — technically, some of my other usable devices "might" be technically better, but the 2016 MBP's trackpad is so far above any other input method for graphic design, that this is really the only device where I can work just as fast as I think


          on the other hand though, both historically and today i prefer other devices for writing documents or coding so there probably is still something abnormal… but whatever it is, it doesn't affect graphic design software at all, so this is pretty much my dedicated laptop for Figma because it feels the best on here compared to anything else

          BTW Figma still runs totally fine, only load times are a bit slow but i don't care

          also, I did write this post on the laptop without strain, so something is working here


          whatever "remaining weirdness" about this Mac is SO different from any other MacBook, because many kinds of visuals that I can't focus on or cause eye strain on other MacBooks are fine on this one

          also, MANY visuals that induce the "false 3D effect" on other modern Macs, including earlier ones like the 2015 rMBP, do NOT on this MacBook. so many things are just flat. it's amazing that i can even achieve that on a Retina MacBook of all things

          the effect is not entirely gone, but it seems like there's totally different "way less smart" logic for applying it where only very specific colors seem to cause it, but many photos and UI elements do not cause it at all)


          here's my settings that have achieved this:

          • max brightness
          • sRGB color profile (BTW, this laptop doesn't have a color depth menu, even though it supports P3)
          • 1440x900 HiDPI scaled resolution, which was the factory default anyway (this is important, the pixel-perfect 1280x800 HiDPI resolution causes strain, but the "more space" options don't)
          • font smoothing disabled
          • cursor blinking disabled
          • dock hidden

          that's it. i even still have the Touch Bar on (even though the OLED touch bar strip has PWM, i don't seem to mind it when not looking at it)


          TLDR: a 2016 13" MBP with mostly default settings, somehow, is the most comfortable and lowest strain experience i've found for specifically graphic design — even compared to other usable laptops I own. the exact reason is unknown.

          however, i prefer other laptops for writing/coding, partly because text looks better in low DPI to me

            DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Is it still strain free if you choose some weird color profile, or mess around with image adjustments in better display?

            Would be nice to see some closeups of the screen compared to another Mac. Preferably in the same photo so it uses the same camera settings.

              async i don't know because i don't want to try changing the color profile, this profile is working perfectly for me — and it's the only device i've found that manages to have both the correct trackpad ergonomics + usable screen for graphic design so i don't want to accidentally lose that

              only thing i know is that before i set it to sRGB, the default Color LCD (P3) profile did cause strain. (this was true even the first time I owned this laptop before I really knew about LED strain, i always ended up setting the profile to sRGB because something felt blurry or off to me about Color LCD)

              i'll try to get some macro photos soon of the screen compared to my 12" MacBook (okayish, still good compared to other Macs, usable at native resolution unlike this one and actually has a dither disable method, BUT has PWM causing washed-out feeling afterwards and has more issues with false 3D effect compared to this) and the 2015 15" rMBP (unusable, i often get immediate strain, can't focus on text after using for more than 20 minutes even if I use the AMD dither disable method, intel mode causes strain too, btw it also has PWM)

                DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                Washed out as in reduced contrast sensitivity (everything looks a bit gray) when looking at other things? I've been trying to observe a bit more how my vision changes thru the day. The effect where black things looks gray is one of the bigger ones if that is what you mean. I never connected that to PWM and flickering, but when I think about it that kinda makes sense. If the brain keeps trying to adapt how bright things are on every flash.

                As noted in the other thread about color shift effects affecting how I percieve other colors later I'm sure there are combos of color intensity and brightness on screen or in the peripheral vision that would be helpful. Maybe some of these goes out of whack when you put brightness into the mix, so instead of adjusting based on a high gamut color once, you would get an impulse to adjust based on it for every flicker.

                Just try changing the color temparature on your screen. In less than a minute white will look white no matter how extreme it is. I think the same types of adaptations are relevant.

                One untested theory I have is that showing washed out colors where you're used to seeing bright ones can increase your percieved contrast sensitivity, as I often get problems after messing around with color profiles. For example spending a few hours with high gamut and then turning down the saturation. No idea if the brain only adjusts this based on maximum intensity, or if there are more advanced pattern matching, where for example seeing photos of objects at 50% saturation would make the brain try to percieve them at the usual level.

                What if some issues are this type of adjusts on overdrive. So you are so used to having high gamut red items for example, so that viewing somewhat similar red items would tell the brain that it looks too faint.

                Impact of Temporal Visual Flicker on Spatial Contrast Sensitivity in Myopia - PMC (nih.gov)

                dev