simplex Speaking of which running windows update services significantly affects eye pain, unexpectedly ).Even if you installed a clean Windows, but left the update services on, then on average after a day will arrive “hidden updates” which will not even be in the list of updates and you will feel pain in the eyes, experienced on myself. Just some information for "club" members ).
Then, how I am struggling with "previos card rendering configuration" or a hidden Windows update. Step by step:
1) I uninstall the driver in the normal way for Windows.
2) I reboot into safe mode and uninstall via DDU.
3) I go back to normal mode and check that the services and tasks to update widnows are stopped.
4) By sequentially running the following commands:
DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth
sfc /scannow
5) Installing a different driver than the one I had.
6) Reboot
7) Repeat steps 1, 2, 3, 4.
8) Install the driver you need (in my case, the one I had).
9) Reboot


      23 days later

      After 1 week being without any screens except smartphone, eyes got rested

      When I sit in my z390+rtx2070s, pain between brows begins after 2 hours. I switched GPU to gtx1060, cleared CMOS removing battery, and pain stopped

      So, after switching from gtx1060 to rtx2070s, 1.5 years is time when I started to feel strain. Same time exp for my wife but with rtx3080ti card

      Looking GPU specs, I found gtx1060 and 1660s (which is safe according to this forum) are directX 12.1, when rtx20 and newer gen are directX 12.2 ultimate. Intel UHD630 or UHD770 or IRIS XE or Intel Arc iGPU - also 12.1, when amd 610m and newer are 12.2

      My question: who use dx12.2 gen graphic card without any issues? Note, dx12.2 support was introduced in win10 2004 and newer. In my theory, win10 <2004 and dx12.1 graphic cars are safest combos

      qb74 do you have an example of this fast oscilloscope with light probe? And/or guides on how to make it and how to test the flickering with it?

      • qb74 replied to this.

          qb74 it's very interesting! Don't you find the Opple Light Master device acceptable for those measurements? It's cheaper and can detect hi-frequency light changes

          • qb74 replied to this.
              4 days later

              Ivan_P
              Until I see a disassembly of it, along with a specsheet of it (since it's basically emulating a oscilloscope + light probe setup, characteristics such as bandwidth of probe and device itself, shape of frequency response etc.), I don't consider it a valid option for comparisons.

              Ideally, one would disassemble panels and probe the backlight itself for brightness fluctuations, but this is not possible for most.

                simplex

                1. Software also matters, I'm using Win10 1809 17763.1098 with updates blocked

                You wrote earlier:
                "Here is my safe workstation: 9600kf/Gigabyte z390d(F2)/Asus 2070s(466.63)/win10 LTSC 1809 build 17763.1098"
                if Windows version is so important, can you specify some subtleties:
                1) Windows 1809_LTSC or 1809_"regular" ?
                2) build 17763.1098 is obtained immediately after a "clean" installation?
                (if so, could you please write the full name of the .iso image and its MD5/SHA checksum)

                I can't find the original Microsoft LTSC_1809_build_17763.1098 image
                I'm installing the initial LTSC_1809(build_17763.316) + kb4538461(Cumulative Update March 2020) = LTSC_1809_build_17763.1098
                I don't know that these are equivalent actions...

                what CPUID does your 9600kf have? 906EC or 906ED? (you can look in AIDA64 https://download.aida64.com/aida64engineer735.zip)

                what is the MICROCODE version AFTER loading Windows? (you can also look in AIDA64)

                1. Using CRU, you can remove the monitor's color data to allow Windows to use the "default" color space without transforming.

                Can you elaborate a bit on "remove monitor color data"? Is this related to edit EDID info ?

                When I sit in my z390+rtx2070s, pain between brows begins after 2 hours. I switched GPU to gtx1060, cleared CMOS removing battery, and pain stopped

                Do I understand correctly that z390+2070s is easier on the eyes than z690+2070s(same)? But z390+1060 is more easier than z390+2070s? Have the VGA drivers version been changed?
                What is the full name of the 1060 model(+BIOS ver)?

                    moonpie
                    How can you claim the Opple and Radex are "good enough" when there isn't a single datasheet or spec sheet of the probes used and of the scope / device itself? There aren't any teardowns of both devices either.
                    You can use a screwdriver to hammer down a nail as well. Something may work, but is not optimal for the task.
                    "Any cheap handheld scope" is not a optimal setup for properly evaluating backlight brightness stability.
                    Dithering testing requires a oscilloscope + probe as well, microscope doesn't tell us anything.

                        glvn 1) Windows 1809_LTSC or 1809_"regular" ?
                        2) build 17763.1098 is obtained immediately after a "clean" installation?

                        I am using customized ISO image which I got in 2021y, I suppose its base Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC (x64) Build 17763 with update which makes 17763.1098 version, so your way LTSC_1809(build_17763.316) + kb4538461 looks correct

                        glvn what CPUID does your 9600kf have?

                        My 9600kf have 906ECh cpuid and AEh microcode, I can check same for my 2nd machine a bit later, coz 2nd machine is also safe

                        glvn Is this related to edit EDID info ?

                        True, I found my xiaomi mi 27 2k used some EDID tech to made gamma brighter, thats why I removed all extension blocks in CRU (bottom part of main windows) using DP cable and add custom resolution in first block in same main window ( coz ext.block contain detail resolution too ). But if you use HDMI connection, you need to add ext.block again using HDMI 2.0 support string with default settings and add extra resolutions in upper list.

                        After that I found my benq with DVI connection is very calm and after CRU checking, found all blocks are empty, so using DP cable I reproduse DVI condition to get calm monitor behavior

                        glvn z390+1060 is more easier than z390+2070s

                        Yes. 2070s (and 2080s) is tolerable, when 1060 is not stressful at all. I sold z690 cos it strained eyes more than z390 keeping same grapfic cards/drivers. Not one of my grapfic card were calm with z690 - even gtx1060 not

                        My laptop with gtx1060 is also very comfortable and calm ( asus gl702vm, 7300hq, gtx1060, 6 bit LP173WF4-SPF3 panel ) with same win10 build and 461.67 nvidia drivers

                        glvn Have the VGA drivers version been changed?
                        What is the full name of the 1060 model(+BIOS ver)?

                        No, I tested with same 466.63 drivers - after GC change, I reset BIOS and clear nvram memory removing CMOS battery for 1 hour, then deinstall drivers via DDU in win safe mode, but safe mode not necessary. When installing new drivers, I choose only display driver + psyX and check "clean install" option

                        100% safe grapfic card with giga z390d (F2 bios of 2019.10.15): white color asus gtx1060 dual, GC BIOS is 86.06.0E.00.41, connection via HDMI to DVI cable

                        Here is my CRU screenshot - no bit depth, no extension block

                        You know, I exported all registry settings to find difference after changing 2070s to 1060 and found nothing (except GC name etc), I also checked directX settings in registry - nothing. All registry parameters are quite same.

                        The issue is how grapfic card render image, how GC apply sharpness/noise reduction. I thought issue is in dx12.2 features which able to made image more better in terms of "depth of view" etc, but nowadays my theory is all new GC use upscaling or other tech which requred smoothing (dithering ) and extra pixel movements

                        1660s which is safe according to this forum have same rtx20 architecture (turing), but dont have rtx/dlss

                                    Staycalmsyndrome

                                    someone has to slow down progress, shake the air and say "this is all in vain, nothing will work" 🙂 this role is busy in this forum

                                      glvn

                                      I have added empty data, CRU screenshots, feel free to ask any details!

                                      I also tested whole week miniPC (13700h + Iris XE 96EU) with same benq HDMI-DVI-D cable, seems okay, similar to z390d+gtx1060:

                                      1. win10pro 21h2 19044.1889 windows feature experience pack 120.2212.4180.0, stopped updates
                                      2. Intel Grapfics driver 31.0.101.5522 (default settings)

                                      I plan to test win10pro 19045.4780 ( updated upto august'24 ) in miniPC next week

                                        4 days later

                                        simplex

                                        I switched GPU to gtx1060, cleared CMOS removing battery, and pain stopped

                                        after switching. besides the feeling of pain, do you see any visual difference in the image, banding for example?

                                        My 9600kf have 906ECh cpuid and AEh microcode,

                                        even earlier you wrote:
                                        "the build number is very important: 1809 LTSC 17763.1098, the next 2 processor updates (kb4589208 and kb5035849) will bring back your eye strain"
                                        https://ledstrain.org/d/2712-windows-with-colorcontrol-still-makes-me-eye-strain/13

                                        bios F2 contains MicroCode 0xAE for 906EC but Windows can update MicroCode
                                        (in particular, kb4589208 updates MicroCode to 0xCA for 906EC)

                                        my guess: if one installation of kb4589208 ONLY adds a eye strain, perhaps the MicroCode version is ONE of the factors ??

                                        After that I found my benq with DVI connection is very calm and after CRU checking, found all blocks are empty, so using DP cable I reproduse DVI condition to get calm monitor behavior

                                        If I understood you correctly, the same monitor connected via DP causes less eye strain with the EDID modification than the same monitor/DP but without the EDID modification?

                                        100% safe grapfic card with giga z390d (F2 bios of 2019.10.15): white color asus gtx1060 dual, GC BIOS is 86.06.0E.00.41, connection via HDMI to DVI cable

                                        HDMI on VGA side ?
                                        in nvidia control panel such connection is displayed as DVI or HDMI?
                                        I'm trying to understand: does eye strain depend on the type of monitor interface (in a potentially safe combination z390/1060/17763.1098)

                                        I found gtx1060 and 1660s (which is safe according to this forum)

                                        unfortunately not all 1660s are safe (

                                        https://ledstrain.org/d/1524-eye-strain-with-new-gpu/79
                                        "Before that i use gtx 1660s inno3d twinx2 gddr6 SAMSUNG and this one is the best. No eyestrain at all.
                                        Then i use gtx 1660s inno3d twinx2 gddr6 micron and hyenix and make me feel eyestrain."

                                        there was also a discussion on this forum about the safe variety of 970, the general conclusion that I remember is that only one specific variety is safe (Gigabyte G1 Gaming 970 version 1.0) not all Gigabyte 970 (

                                        I also tested whole week miniPC (13700h + Iris XE 96EU) with same benq HDMI-DVI-D cable, seems okay, similar to z390d+gtx1060

                                        i5 12600k + UHD 770 ) - all is OK

                                        is there a difference in eye strain between these configurations?

                                        You know, I exported all registry settings to find difference after changing 2070s to 1060 and found nothing

                                        and have you experimented with DitherRegistryKey in registry ?

                                            glvn visual difference in the image

                                            Cant say regarding visuals between rtx20 and gtx1060, but:

                                            1. z390d + gtx1060 and 13700h + Iris XE looks same in term of banding in same monitor
                                            2. rtx3080 or 3080ti (already sold) looks more brighter, more "smooth" or ?noise-reducted? But this fact is for z690d chipset, ( z690d + UHD770 iGPU looks as I wrote above )
                                            3. I also recorded z690/z390 and iGPU/2070s with same monitor for camera (4k60p) - no visual difference at all, same "pixel walking" which is monitor's FRC

                                            glvn perhaps the MicroCode version

                                            Maybe. After I tested win10 21h2 and last win10 22h2 without any discomfort in 13700h + Iris XE, I will plan to test same win build in z390d + gtx1060

                                            glvn less eye strain with the EDID modification than the same monitor/DP but without

                                            True, tested with xiaomi and benq monitors

                                            glvn HDMI on VGA side ?

                                            yes, HDMI is in grapfic card side, DVI-D is monitor's ( it also accept DP, no HDMI ports in monitor )

                                            glvn in nvidia control panel such connection is displayed as DVI or HDMI?

                                            32 bit DVI connection - no options to choose bit depth, 4:2:2 sampling which DP brings (HDMI limitations I suppose)

                                            glvn is there a difference in eye strain between these configurations?

                                            my wife told, z690d + 12600k is strain free, but comparing z390+1060 (win10 1809) vs 13700h+IRIS (win10 22h2) I think they are both comforty

                                            glvn experimented with DitherRegistryKey in registry ?

                                            not only, but yes. Only this keys changing change nothin, ColorControl app activate more win options after that I can change values you wrote and get insta result. More simpler to use ColorControl for that

                                            I also experimented with some difference nvidia values without success also, "DmaRemappingCompatible"=dword:00000003 added in 472.12 for 2070s ( not available in 466.63 )

                                            the main difference btw 1060 and 2070s:

                                            gtx1060 has

                                            [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\nvlddmkm\Global\NvHybrid\Persistence\ACE\HDR] "BrightEv"=dword:00000000 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\nvlddmkm\Global\Startup\StartS3SR] @=dword:00000001

                                            "SaturationRegistryKey"=dword:00000032

                                            2070s has:

                                            [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\nvlddmkm\Global\NvHybrid\Persistence\ACE\PFF\256] "CurveType"=hex:01,00,00,00,01,00,00,00,01,00,00,00 "FrequencyHz"=hex:80,0e,80,69,80,0e,80,69,40,5b,aa,5f "Temperature"=hex:00,53,00,00,00,55,00,00,00,57,00,00 "ThermalLimit"=hex:00,00,a6,42 [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\nvlddmkm\Parameters] "DmaRemappingCompatible"=dword:00000003

                                            Also directX limit values ( 12.2 or 12.1 for example ) in registry also not matters - rtx20 has same but gives pain

                                                          glvn

                                                          100% safe grapfic card with giga z390d (F2 bios of 2019.10.15): white color asus gtx1060 dual, GC BIOS is 86.06.0E.00.41, connection via HDMI to DVI cable

                                                          I forgot to clarify, what brand of memory manufacturer is on your 1060? (Samsung. Hynix, Micron ...)

                                                              glvn

                                                              gtx1060 - GDDR5 Samsung

                                                              rtx2070s - GDDR6 Micron

                                                              rtx2080s - GDDR6 Samsung

                                                              rtx3080, 3080ti - GDDR6X Micron

                                                                dev