Safe hardware PC builds list
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simplex
Mate, do you not understand that my panel can dither and we cannot have the same experience as what you view IRL?
Oscilloscope + (fast) light probe is the objective way to measure this, not some random videos.
ensete
There is a "safe" gudeline I'd say for monitors.
But, ppl here just need to start evaluating biological factors instead though instead of blaming everything on the monitor.
A safe monitor consists of:
- Having least amount of flicker possible (can be easily troubleshooted with a fast oscilloscope + light probe)
- Highest refresh rate possible (sub-360hz is too blurry)
- Highest resolution possible (if possible, opt for high refresh laptop panels due to PPI)
- Does not use KSF phosphor / QDEF backlight (both seem to have reports of causing issues for people), instead employs regular LED, CCFL backlight or WOLED (seems to be fine for some people, only caveat is brightness dip at refresh rate cycle)
- Avoiding high brightness (100-150 nits is fine for daytime use, personal preference territory)
- Using warmer whitepoint (D55 / 5500k is nicer than 6500k or colder, but this is personal perference)
There is a gray area however, which is very individual + not a lot of info on this.
- Matte/Glossy considerations (some work for ones, not for others)
- Polarizer orientation (some orientations work better for ones, not for others)
- Dithering technique used (temporal, simple temporal or static, I've seen reports of static being horrendous for some)
People here use extremely archaic & ridiculous panels imo.
There are outside factors such as:
- Light in room (bulbs are notorious for flicker)
- Biological/psychological factors (vitamin/mineral defficiency, stress levels, hormonal disbalances, diet etc.)
- EMF's (yes, they play a major role in health)
qb74 not some random videos.
Main issue of modern monitors not in dithering or FRC, issue is vcom adjustment which prevent pixel sticking
Looking in my vids you will see different vcom in each monitor, you dont need microscope to record vcom: 60hz monitor, 60p camera and good zoom is enough ( the main rule - camera should gives you high res picture and much more FPS record than monitor did, better to sync record speed )
There are many influencing factors that can be listed, but to check each of them, you need to take measurements.
I believe that monitor problems can be reduced by following these rules:
1) No more than 60/75Hz (I saw a hard vcom in all high-frame rate monitors)
2) Without HDR and excessive brightness (<= 250 nits)
3) Year of manufacture 2014 ... 2020
4) IPS or VA panel does not matter
5) wled backlight without quantum and other technologies of extended coverage, giving sRGB coverage of about 90 ... 100%
6) Monitor coating - very light matte (hard-matte blurs the structure of RGB subpixels and strains the eyes)
7) Almost all monitors are now without low-frequency PWM (> 10 kHz)
8) Almost all monitors have a blue peak at 446 ... 460 nm, this is safe
9) BASIC color temperature - around 6500k, when looking at the monitor there should be no be cold shades
10) DP or HDMI port - does not matter. Both can dither, depending on the EDID settings
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Interesting discussion here. This link just for learning about VCOM:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-vgh-vgl-vcom-its-characteristics-lcm-display-rachel-li-osh8c
photon78s Interesting discussion here. This link just for learning about VCOM:
You mean this patterns are not vcom? Okay, its better to name it "vcom mechanism" or Interlace pattern artifacts which used in pcmonitors reviews
I measured today aoc 24b1h, dexp df24n3, Xiaomi Mi Desktop Monitor 1С. All of them have 2-step pixel twinkling ( left - right ).
Acer 240y dont have this, its vcom similar to my benq ( 4-step pixel twinkling, twice low frequency compared to new monitors ). I got acer for testing
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Nope. No assumptions of anything. Just trying to figure this concept out. I some point maybe you could add vcom to this forum's wiki or the glossary section. Btw, is your username "simplex" refering to simplex noise?
simplex from the word simple - simpler, simplification of the complex
ok I will add after done some tests. I found 2 main vcom patterns - horizontal ( left to right ) and chess pattern
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Here is some results I got:
When I set my 165hz xiaomi panel up to 45hz ( 30…45 ), no green vcom columns anymore and you can use monitor and feel only grapfic card + windows dithering, no "dithering" added by monitor
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/frSj/jFbYfBr1w
When I set to 46hz or more (50, 60, 100, 120, 165) - vcom add its bars and eye-nerve got strain after 20+ minutes
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/WjBP/ga9DxqJGa
p.s. all vids slowed down 4 times. There is static image recorded
p.p.s. all modern monitors I tested have same vertical bars or another pixel sticking protection. I think pair-based vcom (first frame: left green pixel shine and right is closed, second frame: left is closed and right is shine) overload eye-nerve. My old-safe benq dont have pair vcom, it have 4-step
In engineer menu I found no options regarding vcom adjustments. I think it controlled with extra chip in panel board scheme, or it is t-con config
Here is vcom details for high-fps panels -> https://www.powersystemsdesign.com/articles/balancing-image-quality-and-power-use/22/10024
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My new findings:
- If you have a severe attack ( you feel eye-strain even using safe displays for a week ), Glycerin and Ethylmethylhydroxypyridine will help reduce eye pressure. Consult a neurologist first
- There could be " tail " condition ( your nerve still tensed even when irritant has gone )
- GPU make some records in motherboard's nvram, so its better to clear it out ( remove motherboard CMOS battery for 30 min ) after bad GPU usage
- to completly remove nvidia drivers configs, use DDU ( sometimes you can replace GPU but eye-strain can still exist due to "previos card rendering configuration" stored in windows )
- software also matters, I stick with win10 1809 17763.1098 with updates blocked, my current nvidia driver is 536.23 ( check "make clean installation" when install, after that check you using 8bpc / RGB / "full colorrange" in nv control panel, it disable dithering )
- using CRU you can delete monitor colordata to let windows use "default" colorspace without tranformation ( same effect which people get using HDMI-DVI or HDMI-DP cableconnectors, or switchers )
- using monitor profiles or windows night mode (yellow tint shift) also activate color transformation
- If steps above doesnt help, you need to replace hardware and test again. My working top comfort is z390 ( lga1151v2 ) + rtx2070s ( TU104 based ) + benq ( a month ago I bought a new benq 2420z and a used z390 + 9600kf = everything is great on 2nd PC )
qb74 There is a "safe" gudeline I'd say for monitors.
Not really. Just out of your guide, flicker has zero impact on me whatsoever, and refresh rate ABOVE 60hz causes me symptoms, higher resolutions are worse for me, and I need to be sub 3000k color temp, not 5000k
I know there is a strong desire to find a "silver bullet" that cures us, but it doesn't exist. Each person needs to find a specific setup that works for them and then never change it.
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flicker has zero impact on me whatsoever,
Flicker impacts every single human being, whether they perceive it or not. All studies I've come across point to this conclusion.
and refresh rate ABOVE 60hz causes me symptoms,
You might've chosen monitors which have a modern wide color gamut backlight (KSF or QDEF), every monitor is a story of it's own.
higher resolutions are worse for me,
Same story as above, depends on panels which you've used.
and I need to be sub 3000k color temp, not 5000k
Yes, ideally no blue light is best but not everyone can afford using a red screen all the time.
but it doesn't exist.
It does, people here just seem to like going on wild goose chases.
Wonder how ksf phosphor interacts with the chromostereopsis effect. Probably doesn't help the eyes focus.
simplex That's a good idea. we already have a similar list on the wiki. with many people added hardware.
simplex Speaking of which running windows update services significantly affects eye pain, unexpectedly ).Even if you installed a clean Windows, but left the update services on, then on average after a day will arrive “hidden updates” which will not even be in the list of updates and you will feel pain in the eyes, experienced on myself. Just some information for "club" members ).
Then, how I am struggling with "previos card rendering configuration" or a hidden Windows update. Step by step:
1) I uninstall the driver in the normal way for Windows.
2) I reboot into safe mode and uninstall via DDU.
3) I go back to normal mode and check that the services and tasks to update widnows are stopped.
4) By sequentially running the following commands:
DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth
sfc /scannow
5) Installing a different driver than the one I had.
6) Reboot
7) Repeat steps 1, 2, 3, 4.
8) Install the driver you need (in my case, the one I had).
9) Reboot
Thank you, good to know this!
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After 1 week being without any screens except smartphone, eyes got rested
When I sit in my z390+rtx2070s, pain between brows begins after 2 hours. I switched GPU to gtx1060, cleared CMOS removing battery, and pain stopped
So, after switching from gtx1060 to rtx2070s, 1.5 years is time when I started to feel strain. Same time exp for my wife but with rtx3080ti card
Looking GPU specs, I found gtx1060 and 1660s (which is safe according to this forum) are directX 12.1, when rtx20 and newer gen are directX 12.2 ultimate. Intel UHD630 or UHD770 or IRIS XE or Intel Arc iGPU - also 12.1, when amd 610m and newer are 12.2
My question: who use dx12.2 gen graphic card without any issues? Note, dx12.2 support was introduced in win10 2004 and newer. In my theory, win10 <2004 and dx12.1 graphic cars are safest combos
