My new findings:

  1. If you have a severe attack ( you feel eye-strain even using safe displays for a week ), Glycerin and Ethylmethylhydroxypyridine will help reduce eye pressure. Consult a neurologist first
  2. There could be " tail " condition ( your nerve still tensed even when irritant has gone )
  3. GPU make some records in motherboard's nvram, so its better to clear it out ( remove motherboard CMOS battery for 30 min ) after bad GPU usage
  4. to completly remove nvidia drivers configs, use DDU ( sometimes you can replace GPU but eye-strain can still exist due to "previos card rendering configuration" stored in windows )
  5. software also matters, I stick with win10 1809 17763.1098 with updates blocked, my current nvidia driver is 536.23 ( check "make clean installation" when install, after that check you using 8bpc / RGB / "full colorrange" in nv control panel, it disable dithering )
  6. using CRU you can delete monitor colordata to let windows use "default" colorspace without tranformation ( same effect which people get using HDMI-DVI or HDMI-DP cableconnectors, or switchers )
  7. using monitor profiles or windows night mode (yellow tint shift) also activate color transformation
  8. If steps above doesnt help, you need to replace hardware and test again. My working top comfort is z390 ( lga1151v2 ) + rtx2070s ( TU104 based ) + benq ( a month ago I bought a new benq 2420z and a used z390 + 9600kf = everything is great on 2nd PC )

    qb74 There is a "safe" gudeline I'd say for monitors.

    Not really. Just out of your guide, flicker has zero impact on me whatsoever, and refresh rate ABOVE 60hz causes me symptoms, higher resolutions are worse for me, and I need to be sub 3000k color temp, not 5000k

    I know there is a strong desire to find a "silver bullet" that cures us, but it doesn't exist. Each person needs to find a specific setup that works for them and then never change it.

    • qb74 replied to this.

        ensete

        flicker has zero impact on me whatsoever,

        Flicker impacts every single human being, whether they perceive it or not. All studies I've come across point to this conclusion.

        and refresh rate ABOVE 60hz causes me symptoms,

        You might've chosen monitors which have a modern wide color gamut backlight (KSF or QDEF), every monitor is a story of it's own.

        higher resolutions are worse for me,

        Same story as above, depends on panels which you've used.

        and I need to be sub 3000k color temp, not 5000k

        Yes, ideally no blue light is best but not everyone can afford using a red screen all the time.

        but it doesn't exist.

        It does, people here just seem to like going on wild goose chases.

          Wonder how ksf phosphor interacts with the chromostereopsis effect. Probably doesn't help the eyes focus.

          simplex Speaking of which running windows update services significantly affects eye pain, unexpectedly ).Even if you installed a clean Windows, but left the update services on, then on average after a day will arrive “hidden updates” which will not even be in the list of updates and you will feel pain in the eyes, experienced on myself. Just some information for "club" members ).
          Then, how I am struggling with "previos card rendering configuration" or a hidden Windows update. Step by step:
          1) I uninstall the driver in the normal way for Windows.
          2) I reboot into safe mode and uninstall via DDU.
          3) I go back to normal mode and check that the services and tasks to update widnows are stopped.
          4) By sequentially running the following commands:
          DISM.exe /Online /Cleanup-image /Restorehealth
          sfc /scannow
          5) Installing a different driver than the one I had.
          6) Reboot
          7) Repeat steps 1, 2, 3, 4.
          8) Install the driver you need (in my case, the one I had).
          9) Reboot


              23 days later

              After 1 week being without any screens except smartphone, eyes got rested

              When I sit in my z390+rtx2070s, pain between brows begins after 2 hours. I switched GPU to gtx1060, cleared CMOS removing battery, and pain stopped

              So, after switching from gtx1060 to rtx2070s, 1.5 years is time when I started to feel strain. Same time exp for my wife but with rtx3080ti card

              Looking GPU specs, I found gtx1060 and 1660s (which is safe according to this forum) are directX 12.1, when rtx20 and newer gen are directX 12.2 ultimate. Intel UHD630 or UHD770 or IRIS XE or Intel Arc iGPU - also 12.1, when amd 610m and newer are 12.2

              My question: who use dx12.2 gen graphic card without any issues? Note, dx12.2 support was introduced in win10 2004 and newer. In my theory, win10 <2004 and dx12.1 graphic cars are safest combos

              qb74 do you have an example of this fast oscilloscope with light probe? And/or guides on how to make it and how to test the flickering with it?

              • qb74 replied to this.

                  qb74 it's very interesting! Don't you find the Opple Light Master device acceptable for those measurements? It's cheaper and can detect hi-frequency light changes

                  • qb74 replied to this.
                      4 days later

                      Ivan_P
                      Until I see a disassembly of it, along with a specsheet of it (since it's basically emulating a oscilloscope + light probe setup, characteristics such as bandwidth of probe and device itself, shape of frequency response etc.), I don't consider it a valid option for comparisons.

                      Ideally, one would disassemble panels and probe the backlight itself for brightness fluctuations, but this is not possible for most.

                        simplex

                        1. Software also matters, I'm using Win10 1809 17763.1098 with updates blocked

                        You wrote earlier:
                        "Here is my safe workstation: 9600kf/Gigabyte z390d(F2)/Asus 2070s(466.63)/win10 LTSC 1809 build 17763.1098"
                        if Windows version is so important, can you specify some subtleties:
                        1) Windows 1809_LTSC or 1809_"regular" ?
                        2) build 17763.1098 is obtained immediately after a "clean" installation?
                        (if so, could you please write the full name of the .iso image and its MD5/SHA checksum)

                        I can't find the original Microsoft LTSC_1809_build_17763.1098 image
                        I'm installing the initial LTSC_1809(build_17763.316) + kb4538461(Cumulative Update March 2020) = LTSC_1809_build_17763.1098
                        I don't know that these are equivalent actions...

                        what CPUID does your 9600kf have? 906EC or 906ED? (you can look in AIDA64 https://download.aida64.com/aida64engineer735.zip)

                        what is the MICROCODE version AFTER loading Windows? (you can also look in AIDA64)

                        1. Using CRU, you can remove the monitor's color data to allow Windows to use the "default" color space without transforming.

                        Can you elaborate a bit on "remove monitor color data"? Is this related to edit EDID info ?

                        When I sit in my z390+rtx2070s, pain between brows begins after 2 hours. I switched GPU to gtx1060, cleared CMOS removing battery, and pain stopped

                        Do I understand correctly that z390+2070s is easier on the eyes than z690+2070s(same)? But z390+1060 is more easier than z390+2070s? Have the VGA drivers version been changed?
                        What is the full name of the 1060 model(+BIOS ver)?

                            moonpie
                            How can you claim the Opple and Radex are "good enough" when there isn't a single datasheet or spec sheet of the probes used and of the scope / device itself? There aren't any teardowns of both devices either.
                            You can use a screwdriver to hammer down a nail as well. Something may work, but is not optimal for the task.
                            "Any cheap handheld scope" is not a optimal setup for properly evaluating backlight brightness stability.
                            Dithering testing requires a oscilloscope + probe as well, microscope doesn't tell us anything.

                                glvn 1) Windows 1809_LTSC or 1809_"regular" ?
                                2) build 17763.1098 is obtained immediately after a "clean" installation?

                                I am using customized ISO image which I got in 2021y, I suppose its base Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC (x64) Build 17763 with update which makes 17763.1098 version, so your way LTSC_1809(build_17763.316) + kb4538461 looks correct

                                glvn what CPUID does your 9600kf have?

                                My 9600kf have 906ECh cpuid and AEh microcode, I can check same for my 2nd machine a bit later, coz 2nd machine is also safe

                                glvn Is this related to edit EDID info ?

                                True, I found my xiaomi mi 27 2k used some EDID tech to made gamma brighter, thats why I removed all extension blocks in CRU (bottom part of main windows) using DP cable and add custom resolution in first block in same main window ( coz ext.block contain detail resolution too ). But if you use HDMI connection, you need to add ext.block again using HDMI 2.0 support string with default settings and add extra resolutions in upper list.

                                After that I found my benq with DVI connection is very calm and after CRU checking, found all blocks are empty, so using DP cable I reproduse DVI condition to get calm monitor behavior

                                glvn z390+1060 is more easier than z390+2070s

                                Yes. 2070s (and 2080s) is tolerable, when 1060 is not stressful at all. I sold z690 cos it strained eyes more than z390 keeping same grapfic cards/drivers. Not one of my grapfic card were calm with z690 - even gtx1060 not

                                My laptop with gtx1060 is also very comfortable and calm ( asus gl702vm, 7300hq, gtx1060, 6 bit LP173WF4-SPF3 panel ) with same win10 build and 461.67 nvidia drivers

                                glvn Have the VGA drivers version been changed?
                                What is the full name of the 1060 model(+BIOS ver)?

                                No, I tested with same 466.63 drivers - after GC change, I reset BIOS and clear nvram memory removing CMOS battery for 1 hour, then deinstall drivers via DDU in win safe mode, but safe mode not necessary. When installing new drivers, I choose only display driver + psyX and check "clean install" option

                                100% safe grapfic card with giga z390d (F2 bios of 2019.10.15): white color asus gtx1060 dual, GC BIOS is 86.06.0E.00.41, connection via HDMI to DVI cable

                                Here is my CRU screenshot - no bit depth, no extension block

                                You know, I exported all registry settings to find difference after changing 2070s to 1060 and found nothing (except GC name etc), I also checked directX settings in registry - nothing. All registry parameters are quite same.

                                The issue is how grapfic card render image, how GC apply sharpness/noise reduction. I thought issue is in dx12.2 features which able to made image more better in terms of "depth of view" etc, but nowadays my theory is all new GC use upscaling or other tech which requred smoothing (dithering ) and extra pixel movements

                                1660s which is safe according to this forum have same rtx20 architecture (turing), but dont have rtx/dlss

                                            Staycalmsyndrome

                                            someone has to slow down progress, shake the air and say "this is all in vain, nothing will work" 🙂 this role is busy in this forum

                                              glvn

                                              I have added empty data, CRU screenshots, feel free to ask any details!

                                              I also tested whole week miniPC (13700h + Iris XE 96EU) with same benq HDMI-DVI-D cable, seems okay, similar to z390d+gtx1060:

                                              1. win10pro 21h2 19044.1889 windows feature experience pack 120.2212.4180.0, stopped updates
                                              2. Intel Grapfics driver 31.0.101.5522 (default settings)

                                              I plan to test win10pro 19045.4780 ( updated upto august'24 ) in miniPC next week

                                                dev