Lenovo T480 - Yes, Win10 1809 downgrade *matters* just like others say here

Reinhard62 I don't really care about "pwm free" as long as there's no "strobe-style" PWM, there are AUO panels that show no PWM on camera (compared to my safe 2012 LG panel that has mild PWM visible on camera) but still strain me massively whereas my safe LG is fine.

For me my strain and reading symptoms seem to be connected to oversharpening, contrast/edge enhancement, subpixel/chromostereopsis-based "depth enhancement", white halos around text that are caused by post-processing (this can either come from a panel or a bad GPU/OS) more than just temporal flicker.

Temporal dithering is still very irritating to me and can definitely interfere with reading too, but "classic" pixel inversion seems to be OK. Of course I'd prefer not to have that either, but my safe panel has it -- yet it's still safe. On this new panel I'm trying, I can only spot checkerboard pixel inversion and no "chaotic" dithering, usually I can tell when a screen is dithering pretty quickly but not here, I only see inversion-style flicker.

I do have significant issues and headaches/tiredness induced by most LED lightbulbs and displays that "flash" at a more strobe-like flicker depth, but the mild level of PWM in my safe panel is essentially fine with me.

Also the size of 15-inch laptops really just doesn't work for me ergonomically.

Looks like the T590 uses an LG IPS too and has similar display specs to what I'm trying anyway. I prefer trying an older LG panel instead of a newer once, since I had problems with a 2018 1440p LG panel in a T480s, and a few other newer ThinkPads with LG panels I tried at a used computer store all strained me. On the other hand, older LG IPS panels I've seen in the wild (e.g. T460s FHD touch) generally look much "crisper" to me at first glance.

So far I'm having a pretty nice experience with this LG panel, only time will tell if it's truly good, but it's already succeeding at a ton of stuff that a bunch of other panels I've tried totally fail at. Pretty surprised at how good it is at light tasks so far, but now need to test more intense work.

So it's still one of the better screens I've tried, and it gets a surprising amount of "the basics" right, but starting to notice the flaws -- even though it's alright, my "perfect" 2012 panel is still noticeably better compared to this.

Honestly, I will probably keep it "for now" because it's better to have an OK panel in this laptop instead of the terrible Innolux, and I have actually gotten some work done on here.

What this panel gets right is that I can still read text coherently (unlike a lot of other ones I've tried!)

However, there's definitely times where I get some "mild eyestrain" that I simply don't get on my safe panel. I don't think this is because of PWM or inversion, because my safe panel has those at essentially the same amount.

Fortunately though, no "severe" painful eyestrain like the Innolux! But not a totally pleasant experience either.

Here are the issues I've noticed so far:

• I dislike how bright red and blue look with the 100% sRGB gamut. Interestingly, can make these pure colors feel more relaxing with a desaturation preset in NegativeScreen app. But, as white is created by R+G+B together it's harder to change white, definitely white has more "harshness" compared to my safe screen. (This doesn't mean that narrower gamut screens are safe though, as the Innolux was 45% NTSC but it sucked.)

• Starting to lean towards glossy instead of matte. Even though matte is theoretically better it seems like no manufacturer can get it right. As I move my head from left to right I notice that the part of the screen farthest away from my head gets slightly blurrier. Sometimes this effect is caused by other screen problems, but in this case I'm pretty sure that it's directly connected to the matte coating. (Fortunately though, there's no matte rainbow or grain)

• Weird post-processing thing: Dark wallpaper with some glowing elements + a bright window. When I minimize the window, the glowing wallpaper elements "fade into a brighter version" over a split second. (DPST disabled, PSR disabled, ACE disabled, also tried Basic Display Adapter, still happened. Unsure if this is caused by Windows/GPU or the panel.)

• Some kind of LCD overdrive or ghosting is going on, as I can notice colored motion trails even if I disable the green and blue subpixels and only use red. (This is something that to this day, only my safe 2012 panel "gets right", as I don't see colored trails on that one -- it's probably not using overdrive.)

• Strangely, the green subpixels seem to be physically better than the red and blue ones. If I set the screen to only use green pixels, I can tell it immediately becomes easier to read or slightly sharper in a good way. (There's definitely something odd about the red subpixels compared to my safe panel.)

The positives: text is surprisingly readable, I still don't get any "immediate" crazy eyestrain (unlike Innolux), and UI proportions generally feel more "correct" compared to other panels I've tried.

However, I don't think I can recommend this one because I'm still getting some strain in Windows 10. (It's definitely a big step up from Innolux though!)

I'm also still optimistic about trying other LG panels especially glossy ones.

P.S. I actually bought two of this same panel, one open-box (this one) and another used. I will be trying the used version in a couple days to see if there is some variation (even between this exact model).

I will also try earlier 2015 Windows 10 versions to check if the OS is a factor.

qb74 Temporal dithering isn't the main culprit of eyestrain for most people.

i didn't say that temporal dithering was the main problem, i was only trying to demonstrate that temporal dithering is a bit worse for me, compared to mild ~5% depth PWM which doesn't affect me (100% depth strobe-like PWM gives me strain though)

my primary issues with displays aren't related to temporal dithering

QHD also sucks at 13" or 14". I use tons of legacy apps that don't support scaling and they either become blurry or too tiny, and 2x integer scaling creates 720p which is not enough screen space. QHD only works for me at ~15inch or larger, but I've tried 15" laptops and they don't work ergonomically for me (in terms of weight/typing/able to use in tight spaces).

the laptop you mentioned is 15.3" so it makes sense why QHD would work there, but not for smaller laptops IMO

My favorite resolution+size is 1600x900 at 13.3", the size of UI elements is perfect and no scaling is needed, but there are literally only 3 IPS panels with those specs on Panelook, all from 2012-2013 (two LG IPS and one Samsung PLS), and only 1 of those supports eDP. they're super unique because most 1600x900 panels are TN instead of IPS

photon78s software processing or post-processing for displays

it gets stranger, I'm now trying Ubuntu 18.04 instead of Windows 10 1809 and for some reason, on this LG panel it actually feels a LOT better while running native (not VM) Ubuntu. Still not going to go out and say it's great or reccomendable -- but there is so much less of the feeling that things are "glowing bluish around the edges" or "large gray shadows seem to appear to the left and right of vertical divider lines", white backgrounds are less harsh, and there's definitely less false 3D effect too on many photos. Seems to be less strain while reading too.

I am using lossless RealVNC into a macOS desktop in order to compare the same UI elements/images/text across both OSes. Both OSes are run without any color profile.

BTW spatial dithering (but not temporal) is still currently turned on by default in Ubuntu, haven't tried to change that yet. Before, I tried Windows both with and without spatial dithering.

(This means that the UI and fonts of Windows vs. Ubuntu is NOT what I'm comparing here, but instead what the OS decides to do with the colors, edges, and contrast in what should be the "same" lossless VNC session…)

as one example, the orange "Learn More" button on the left sidebar of AskUbuntu (which is being displayed through macOS Chrome inside the VNC session) seemed to pop out from the screen on Windows 10, but I immediately noticed it appears flatter while I'm booted into Ubuntu

for reference I was running 1809 with June 2017 Intel drivers. I also tried disabling features like DPST and PSR on Windows, also disabled multi-plane overlay, I even disabled DWM itself but had no luck…

on the other hand, Ubuntu (at least older versions) is immediately better for this panel. although not sure how much better yet

so this indicates that Windows itself definitely plays into post-processing as well, even 1809

for comparison, the previous Innolux didn't see the same improvement with [native] Ubuntu, but I feel like for the Innolux there was even more weird stuff going on at the LCD panel level. for example Innolux's patent for "Liquid crystal display having image edge enhancement circuit"

finally, Ubuntu doesn't always help, because strangely my otherwise safe 2012 IdeaPad Yoga 13 laptop seems to somehow create mild eyestrain in Ubuntu even though it's always been "consistent enough to confidently say it's great" on Windows 8.1