Posted this in the wrong thread. Dropping it here.

For the ones that had an experience where short term usage of a screen significantly afffects the tolerance for other screens it would be interesting to hear about the percieved differences in both the old and new screen, and in how the old screens feel afterwards.

There is a ton of theories from Claude above, and I'm sure it can be a case of some threshold being hit, combined with a few psychological effects, but then again it could also be that some particular straining input that doesn't really exist anywhere else are experienced for the first time and causes some adaptation.

Macbook Pro M1 and some iPhones seem to be a really recurring theme in the cases where someone just got messed up. Tbh if I had to put my money on something it would probably be a combination of True Tone with really sharp high contrast edges for lines together with somewhat blurry text that forces some maladaptive change. Might be that the brightness dips somehow starts a new adaptation process each time as well.

Really interested in hearing more experiences from these types of switches.

  1. First time really high PPI?

  2. First time with really high contrast ratio?

  3. First time with a screen that has really sharp and clear edges?

  4. Mild color shift, like different tone for white and/or black? Are one screen redish and the other yellow? Does one have blueish blacks?

  5. First time actually focusing on a screen with PWM?

  6. First time with text size below a certain physical size?

    async I don't like these questions because they are really just accusatory and dismissive
    They must not start with "First time".

        bluetail A rather strange interpretation. First time exposure to different technologies and screen specifications seems like very relevant information when talking about eye strain caused by switching from one screen to another.

            QuitePainful

            For sure. But before all that, you need to evaluate if these things appear outside of displays - in real world / nature.
            Then you need to evaluate if there are sensitivities in the individual.
            Then, it needs to be evaluated what worked historically and what not.
            Afterwards, the comparison between that data and the new state needs to be made.

            Note that if you do not get any eye-strain if you avoid all displays, then displays may have something in it, that triggers issues.
            You may switch to a different technology, but your own eye-sight in real-life will always be a more realistic experience than exposure to artificial light emissions.

            And yep, To say … "First time …" just feels like an insult.

            I gave Chat-GPT a try. Here is what it says:

            The post might feel insulting because it appears to make broad assumptions about people’s experiences with screens without acknowledging individual differences. Here are a few reasons why it might come across that way:

            1. Assumptions About Sensitivity: It suggests that the user’s discomfort or difficulty might be due to "maladaptive changes" or specific features like True Tone or PWM, which could imply that the person isn’t paying enough attention to these factors or isn’t adaptable.

            2. Technical Jargon and Theories: The post dives into technical details and theories without a clear understanding of how they might apply to everyone’s individual experiences. This can make it feel dismissive of personal experiences if they don't align with the stated theories.

            3. Focus on Specific Products: Mentioning specific products like the MacBook Pro M1 and iPhones might come off as overly critical or dismissive of those who are using these devices and experiencing discomfort, potentially suggesting that their issues are minor or self-inflicted.

            4. Generalization of Experience: The post is framed in a way that could be interpreted as suggesting there’s a “right” or “wrong” way to experience screen discomfort, which may invalidate or overlook individual experiences.

            It might help to frame your inquiry more neutrally, acknowledging that different people have unique experiences and emphasizing that you’re interested in a variety of perspectives rather than focusing on specific technical causes or solutions.

              Tbh it was a query to get some extra data points as I dig thru studies on visual neuroscience to see if it is possible to end up with a plausible and testable hypothesis on why certain devices are overrepresented (apart from PWM and blue light) and are actually able to induce issues with other types of flicker / lights. That in turn might be reversible with the right type of shaders or overlays. I will not spend time responding to woke requests on something that wasn't even mildly offensive.

                async I understand your stance.
                However, also try to understand me. The data-points you try to gather are pretty late in the chain of information
                If the previous data-points are not assessed, it becomes a pointless exercise, because it will be hugely biased.
                We shall not end up in wrong conclusions.

                Let me explain in this hypothetical situation:
                1. I eat toast from the brand foo.
                2. After 6 years, I notice that my throat itches when I eat that particular toast
                3. <=== Now you start Interviewing ===>
                4. You ask me if it was the first time I ate that particular toast
                5. I say no, I ate it for 6 years
                6. You ask me if I ever tried a whole grain toast

                Do you see the issue?
                - We need to make sure the ingredients stayed consistent
                - We need to make sure the health stayed consistent
                - We need to make sure the dining ware stayed consistent
                - And so much more!

                To have the audacity to ask for a full-grain toast, even if the user didn't choose to, for trying to fix the situation, is dismissive, misleading and not scientific at all.
                We need to make sure that all details are assessed. Not just those few - late data-points.

                    bluetail The post you originally replied to was addressed to people who have experienced a change in their ability to tolerate previously tolerable screens after trying a new one specifically. You omitted this in your hypothetical situation. If such a change occurs only after being exposed to another screen that induces symptoms, to me it seems reasonable to assume causality between these events and to start investigations on that basis.

                    I don't find the post accusatory or dismissive in any way. The poster is simply trying to see if they can find common patterns in these specific kinds of experiences and to come up with ideas.

                    Also, using a large language model to interpret people's intentions might not be the best idea. The ChatGPT text you posted is complete nonsense like most of the content it generates.

                        QuitePainful I did not omit it.
                        Specifically, 2. After 6 years, I notice that my throat itches when I eat that particular toast

                        - It could have been that the user became allergic ( yep this can happen over time )
                        - It could have been that the ingredients changed.

                            bluetail I must have misunderstood.

                            Wouldn't 2. After 6 years, I tried a different kind of toast that made my throat itch and now my throat itches when I eat my usual toast as well exemplify the premise better, making it reasonable to ask questions about the different kind of toast that was tried and that seems to have caused the change?

                            If a change like this occurred spontaneously without any clear cause, you would have a point, but async is talking about a situation where a plausible external cause does exist, namely exposure to a different screen.

                            I feel like we're veering a bit off topic here.

                                QuitePainful Oh, thats helpful. And rest assured, we are on-topic.
                                The first difficulty in the questions asked was to understand the intent properly.

                                This would fulfill the criteria to develop an allergy or sensitivity.
                                It is well known that consuming some food can cause allergies and cross-allergies you didn't had before.

                                To name one example I have read online: Exposure to latex can lead to latex allergy, and make you allergic to bananas, kiwis […]

                                  I use an iPhone 12. Usually, I can look at the screen for a maximum of 5-10 minutes at a time before my eyes need a rest. But it's the best OLED phone I could find. I've noticed that after overnight flights, when I haven't slept for almost a day, I can use the iPhone 12 for a long time without any issues. Information screens in the subway also don't cause problems in that case, although usually, I can't look at them for long. I don't know how to explain it.

                                    WhisperingWind That's interesting. By the way, you could learn how to use the phone with VoiceOver - so you can turn off the screen and still work on it. But that may be a lot to take in 😃

                                      WhisperingWind

                                      This is interesting. I was literally just having the conversation with someone that when I'm extremely tired or have had less sleep (I do overnight flights to Europe quite a bit) the issues don't seem quite as bad.

                                      On a sort of related note, in another post I mentioned that I recently had my eyes dilated for an exam this year (first time I've had my eyes dilated in a long time). For the next few hours I could at least somewhat comfortably use OLED iPhone screens that would typically make me feel sick almost immediately.

                                          Thank you all for the interesting discussion and a lot of hypotheses.

                                          The topic of allergies came up. I perceive my symptoms as a defensive reaction of my brain. It looks a bit like an allergy to specific screens. When it comes to allergies, even after years of using something, eating something, etc., allergy symptoms can occur. This was the case with my cholinergic urticaria. One day I just got it. It's sensitivity to sweat, and yet people sweat every day.

                                          Yes, I have used screens that were bad for me, but if they made me sensitive to good screens, it must have been a long process but with a sudden effect. I tested the first phone in April, and the last one (the best for my eyes) in early June. The good screens became unbearable in mid-June. When I was testing the phones, I also was using the Switch OLED and Steamdeck and had absolutely no problems with them. I don't know if I mentioned, but the screens of my consoles have completely different parameters (different frequency, modulation depth, etc.), but the symptoms are identical.

                                          My case is difficult because there were a lot of variables in a short period of time. Have contact lenses made me sensitive to light? Maybe it's a reaction to antihistamines? Maybe I've been using the wrong screens for too long. Or maybe all at once?

                                          I'm going to test my bad screens, looking for the cause of my problems. If I figure something out, I'll share the results here. Maybe this will help someone.

                                          For now, I have stopped taking antihistamines and put moisturizing drops in my eyes. The day before yesterday I used Nintendo Switch for about half an hour. The next day my eyes hurt and I still feel some discomfort today. So nothing has changed for now.

                                            choqpi Do you sit in a room that does not let through sunlight? It might actually help to do that, and to control the lighting yourself. A simple thing many photographs use is a display hood.

                                              ocean10

                                              I think this happens due to eyes fatigue; they become slightly less sensitive to external stimuli, including PWM. In the case of PWM, the eye adjusts to the average brightness (between the states of the screen being "off" and "on", with the average brightness being calculated based on the time spent in each of these states and the amplitude). However, the brightness fluctuations caused by PWM deviate from this "average brightness," and the eye is not prepared for such intense light, which affects it. But since these fluctuations are brief, the eye doesn't have time to understand what's happening and adjust. If the eyes are very tired, they may become less sensitive to such brightness fluctuations. This applies not only to PWM but also to any other strain on the eyes. Lately, I've been trying to make Linux more comfortable for my eyes, and in the evening, it always seems like it's getting easier to work. But in the morning, it becomes clear that this isn't quite the case. Therefore, I've stopped trusting my eyes in this matter and have bought an HDMI recorder for these purposes.

                                                  bluetail

                                                  Editing EDID can potentially affect some aspects of monitor performance, such as resolution, refresh rate, and other display parameters. However, disabling dithering directly through EDID editing is unlikely. This process is usually controlled by the graphics card and its drivers (I don't mean FRC here), not the monitor.

                                                  But I think it is possible to influence this indirectly by specifying the number of bits per channel or the output signal format (if the driver for some reason has incorrectly determined them) in EDID. However, in this case, the internal logic of the driver should assume disabling dithering for the given number of bits per channel or signal format. I can't say how viable this case is.

                                                  As for PWM, I have not encountered cases where this could be done through EDID editing.

                                                    Try the palming exercise.
                                                    When we look at short distance, our ciliary muscle became stiff. The lens the same. We need a rest. Try palming for 6 minutes and 5-6 times a day. Look at distance during the day.
                                                    Wear antiblue glasses, and your relief is guaranteed.

                                                    7 days later

                                                    I'm back here with an update. This was the worst week for my eyes in my life.

                                                    So, after using my Switch for a while last Monday, I got the typical eye pain the next day, nothing new. The pain continued on Tuesday - I usually need two days for my eyes to fully recover. I was surprised when I woke up on Wednesday with swollen eyes and pain behind the eye.

                                                    The symptoms worsened on Thursday. I felt pressure in my eye and pain behind my eye radiating to my forehead. It wasn't the typical pain I experienced after using bad screens.

                                                    I thought maybe I had become sensitive to my phone, but that's not it. On Saturday and Sunday it was better - no pain. Same on Monday and yesterday. However, there remained a slight pressure in the eye, the eyes got tired faster, the eyeballs were harder than usual. Of course, I wasn't using bad screens all this time. I decided not to ignore it and went to the ophthalmologist. He measured my eye pressure. It is at the upper limit of normal (20 mm Hg). The ophthalmologist sent me to the hospital for additional tests - examination of the optic nerve and visual angles. I also need to do an X-ray of the paranasal sinuses to rule out problems on that side. This is all strange and disturbing, I've never felt this way before. I'll let you know if further tests show anything.

                                                      dev