madmozg I appreciate you going into so much detail about this and it gives me a lot of hope. I'm probably going to go try an M4 16" Macbook Pro in the next few days, but I was a bit curious of your history with Macs specifically. I've been able to comfortably use a Macbook Pro "Mid 2014" model for years stopping at Catalina 10.15.7 but what's weird is when I've tried out Linux or Windows 10 on the same laptop, I get that uncomfortable feeling that one can get that it's tough to explain. Just an off feeling, etc. I've tried every Macbook air/pro from M1 - M3 without any luck, including Mac Mini, as well as about 10 other Windows 11 based Intel/Nvidia based laptops (some with Windows 10). I currently have a usable Windows 10 desktop computer but I feel like my time is running out on that haha. I've even tried a Macbook Pro from the 2019 lineup with the same issues like the screen felt like it's moving. StillColor and all those apps didn't help.

I say all of this because, did you have a similar experience for years? For a long time I wondered if it was something the software in the OS was doing or if it's the screen itself or a combination of the two. Even using external monitors that are comfortable on my Windows 10 machine are still uncomfortable on any laptop. So anyway, I appreciate you writing up that post. I'm going to hopefully try one out int he next week but it seems like I should push through that potential "pain" to see if I have an adjustment period, do you think?

      whystrainwhy Can you let me know your Bootrom version please? I too am stuck at Catalina and I believe it's the later firmware that's the issue. I don't have my laptop to hand right now but I'll edit this and post up my Bootrom version next time I'm Infront of it.

      I have two identical spec MBP but borth with Ventura firmware and running them on identical Catalina version still leads to strain.

        madmozg What great news! Congratulations!
        A few questions:

        • M4 PRO or MAX?
        • Is pro motion display active?
        • What color space are you using?
        • You mentioned using better display, but with what settings? Mirroring?

        Thanks

            asus389 Interesting. This is to improve color gamut and motion based on this article. And on the website they do not make any big marketing communication out of it. Would be great to finally sell out all the crapware workaround stuff and simply get one machine that actualy works.

              whystrainwhy So previously I didn't have any issues with macbook pros later than 2018.

              I failed with:

              • Macbook pro 2019 VEGA 20
              • Macbook pro 2019 16 inch intel
              • All macbook pros with M1/M2/M3
              • All mac minis connected to 8/10bit displays and even OLEDs. (But OLEDs itself giving me issues without even PC or Mac connected 😃)
              • All macbook air with M1 M2 M3
              • Apple XDR and Studio displays (tried them both many times at apple store, it was the same experience as with macbook airs)
              • Ubuntu with 3070 Super
              • iPhone 12/13/14/15

              I'm fine with:

              • Win 11 latest and Nvidia 3070 super. With 8bit set in nvidia settings. But some games looks like using pixel-inversion or something like that which gives me some issues.
              • I'm totally fine with latest Fedora and integrated Intel GPU 12900K
              • All macbooks <= 2018
              • iPhone 11 Pro (there is one uniq model with different display than the others and only ios 16)
              • iPhone 16 Pro Max (yes, I'm able to use it without any issues, will make a post later about this journey)
              • Any lamps with PWM looks like doesn't bother me, I can see the flicker but symptoms free, its just bothering that its flickers lol

              So I was always curious why the hell people here can use macbook airs with stillcolor enabled, but I was failing. So now I think KSF phosphor layer can be the answer, so I will try to prove it.

              Lauda89

              • I got for now 16 inch Pro 24Gb, but I feel like I want to get more powerful version, to be safe in the future lol.
              • Yes I'm with pro-motion
              • I have disabled true-tone, maybe I will turn it on later to compare.
              • P3-600 currently. P3-1600 is soooo bright, it feel like you are looking at the sun.
              • BetterDisplay just to turn of dithering. (GPU dithering is off)

              I've created a post on reddit with opple measurements - https://www.reddit.com/r/PWM_Sensitive/comments/1gtxv6p/macbook_pro_16_m4_pwm_tests/

              I also need to check which panel I have on this laptop. Will post it here later.

                    I went to the store yesterday, but it was just too short time to try. Usually pro models are better with exception of M3 Pro which was terrible for eye strain. But if this one is good, that is good news, as price is also now fully in line with Dell XPS 15 line, so its a no brainer. Having said that new XPS 15 devices should also have attention, as usually these also ship better components with exception of 4k screens which I recall had very bad feedback in regards to eye strain.

                    madmozg Thanks for the response! I'm actually trying out the M4 16" Macbook Pro (as I'm about 30-40 mins in) as a I write this message. I have disabled TrueTone and AutoBrightness, but I am currently using Pro Motion. I have enabled BetterDisplay with GPU Dithering option disabled. I also am trying out the sRGB and Apple Display P3-600 Display settings because P3-1600 is extremely bright. When I compare looking at the screen with my Mid 2014 Macbook Pro, I can tell a stark difference but I also am completely used to using that laptop so when I look at it, my eyes can rest. Right now, I still don't quite feel that level of comfort using it, but compared to the 2019 Macbook Pro, M1, M2, & M3, Macbook Pros, the screen doesn't feel like it's moving so much and I wonder if there's just a period of "adjustment" that I need get through. When I've tried over a dozen of other laptops with Windows 11, all of them gave me that dizzying feeling shortly after looking at the screen, and I felt too sick to try to "push through". The same happened with M1 Mac Mini as well as looking at any of the Apple external monitors, so who knows what that's about. I've tried Linux on my Macbook Pro Laptop and felt that same level of just "discomfort" but never pushed through long enough to see if it would get better or change.

                    You said by 2-3, you were able to use the laptop pretty comfortably without any eye pain or headaches or anything. The main thing I'm feeling with this M4 is almost like a "Dry Eye" sensation. Did you have similar feelings on that first day with the eyes?

                    And for anyone else out there reading this, Best Buy (if you're in the US) is doing their promotion where you have until January (I think either Jan 8 or 14?) to return items, instead of their typical 14 day return period.

                        whystrainwhy I think yea, it took me 3-4 days to start using it without any issues or limitations. So if you are not feeling any strain/headaches while using the macbook then I think you can adapt to it. I think I maybe had some dry eyes symptoms when I went below 50% of brightness on P3-600 preset.

                        During these adapting days my brain was constantly fighting with me, it was trying to find anything to initiate eye strain or anything like that, and each time when I caught myself with the question "is it giving me eyestrain" I was telling myself, move move, there is nothing. It was helping 🙂

                        btw @whystrainwhy if the brightness is too much for you and you want a lower modulation depth, go to some car parts store (for example O'reilly) and buy a basic car tint 20%, i think its about 15-20$. Use display paper cover which was in macbook box to cut out that car tint perfectly, remove the film to make it adhesive and apply to your macbook pro display, and try with it. With this you will be able to use 100% brightness with lower modulation and car tint will blocking all lights for 80% so it will be not that bright.

                            madmozg You are like a bright light around here haha. Yeah I've been using the laptop for a few hours and I feel that kinda weird eyestrainy tiredness but not really any headaches which is a first. I notice if I watch a video or play a game and NOT have to focus on text, that feeling kinda just disappears. What's pretty cool is that if I look away from the screen, I quickly feel "normal" again, whereas with other screens, I have horrible headaches for hours or feel nauseous and off even into the next day. So I'm going to keep trying to use this thing for multiple hours every day to see if my eyes can finally adapt and relax, which sounds like is possible? 😃

                                madmozg One last question: when you were adjusting, did you find you straining a bit more to read text versus viewing images/watching videos and did that resolve in that 3-4 day period?

                                    whystrainwhy I remember this behavior when I was testing macbook airs, and maybe on a day 1 with this new macbook, but after that I didn't notice a difference between reading text or watching a video.

                                        madmozg Thankyou so much again for your response, it really gives me a lot of hope to keep going 🙂 Our brains and eyes are strange and wonderful things aren't they? haha

                                          I don't want to get anyone's hopes up and want to be cautious but this is the best experience that I've had stood Infront of an Apple Silicon.. I just checked it out for 10/15mins in the store.

                                          Hard to say for certain, Ill definitely be keeping an eye on it!!

                                          I did check an M3air for a few moments and I'm pretty certain the M4 Pro didn't have the trance like brain fog symptom.

                                          So so hard to say for sure though…

                                            GBowler thats exciting news 🙂

                                            If you guys are planning to test MBP 16 at apple store dont forget to download stillcolor app and disable dithering.

                                                madmozg Yeah I've just been back to the store and it's hard to believe, but this seems to be comfortable for me..

                                                I'll be proceeding with caution, I still feel like I'm a little spun out after looking at it.. but maybe that's the promotion. I'll likely get hold of one soon for a big test run.

                                                Unbelievable if the end of this drama is in sight!

                                                  Ok, lets see then. 1 Day impression does not count. But 14 day, or at least good 1.5 weeks of work (~12 day) should give some decent answers. 6 Days using color LCD profile, 6 days using sRGB if there would be any strain on native ICC. Also 1/2 of the time should be spend using this machine on external monitor, which is known to be decent, i.e. works well with let say windows machine or old intel mac. By well, it does not mean there is no eye strain from long hours of work, it just means there is no abnormal eye strain that triggers quickly and is residual even after leaving montitor for 10 minutes or so.. If this test passes, then there is another set of tests needed to debunk wrong batch hypothesis. Sadly, in my area, there is no return policty, so I hope someone in US, CA, UK, FR, DE, … etc could perform these tests. There should be at least 7 out of 10 people who say - OK, I can work with this all day.

                                                  madmozg So good news so far. After some tinkering, I finally got the screen to stop feeling like it was "moving" by using StillColor AND BetterDisplay. This is the first time I've felt like my eyes are extremely relaxed when looking at the screen, however I do find a bit of pressure build up in parts of my head like the top and parts of the back but not any kind of headache like I've historically gotten. Not tons, but after a few minutes, it starts feeling that way. I haven't tried using it for multiple consecutive hours just yet, but I will keep trying and see if I adapt. So far, I'm very pleased. I looked at your Reddit post again, and you also had some head pressure within that first week as you were adjusting?

                                                  For anyone else wanting to try out the M4 Macbook Pro, Here are the settings I am using right now:

                                                  StillColor:

                                                  In the application, I have "Disable Dithering" and "Disable Uniformity2D" both selected.

                                                  I ensured that the dithering was turned off via StillColor and not so much with BetterDisplay by running this command and receiving three results that all say "No" for the "enableDither" flag.

                                                  ➜  ~ ioreg -lw0 | grep -i enableDither
    | |   |   |   "enableDither" = No
    | |   |   |   "enableDither" = No
    | |   |   |   "enableDither" = No
➜  ~

                                                  Then of course, here are my display settings:

                                                  TrueTone is disabled

                                                  Automatically Adjust Brightness is turned off

                                                  Display Profile Preset: "BetterDisplay XDR" - (I found BetterDisplayXDR to be better than the others) so I will continue to tinker with the different options.

                                                  I'm currently trying out both ProMotion and 60hz. 60 Hz feels a bit more comfortable on my eyes.

                                                  To be honest, I don't know how this will go over the coming days, but I feel more hopeful for this laptop than I have for the 10-15+ laptops I've tried in the last 2 years (all of which were unusable for me including M1-M3 Macbook Airs and Macbook Pros). Anyway, I hope this config helps others 🙂

                                                    dev