Hello from Poland,

I've been following your forum since few years, finally decided to join you, ask for your help and share some tips which helped me. (PS. Sorry for my English - it's not perfect, but should be communicative).

Summarizing (I'll provide much more details, together with my tips and thoughts on the 2nd, long part of my post): It's very personal topic for me, as sensitivity to modern hardware and software ruined my career (I was succesfull IT Manager for over a decade), it also (as in your case, I suppose) has huge impact on day-to-day life and it's gerring worse over the time - more apps, web sites etc become unusable. Currently I am at the point where I am looking on any advice to proceed fusther.

It's definitely not only hardware issue, even not only the case of correct HW + OS + drivers. In my case, even perfectly fine setup (computer, screen, Windows, drivers version etc or mobile phone) may become unusable after application update. For example:

a) phone: perfectly usable Samsung Galaxy S9 on 04.2021 firmware (tested also on S10+, Huawei P20 PRO etc) become unusable once I allow updating applications like Google Maps, Youtube, Chrome/Brave, Microsoft Teams and many, many more. In the case of Google Maps or Youtube, they became unusable for me starting from 09.2022. Even more - if I load some websites (like polish autoblog.pl) on perfetly usable phone, with old Brave version, I cannot look at it without symptomes anymore - until I clear browser data and restart the phone.

What's interesting, exactly the same phone (Galaxy S9, S10+, Note 9) become unusable after 05.2021 firmware update. The same screen (so the same PWM), the same set fo applications. Thus, I am wondering, whether in my case it's related to PWM?

Samsungs are known for ther terrific PWM - I was using every model betwen S1 and S20+ (obviously with statis 60Hz refresh rate) - all of them were/are usable if I do not allow updating firmware above 04.2021. Note 20 Ultra is the only exception - even with correct software I cannot stand it, seems to be related with the LPTO screen.

b) computer: perfectly usable Dell Latitude 5490 or Lenovo T580 with Windows 10 1909 April 2020 update (or 22H2 1945.3086 in the case of Dell) becomes a nightmare if I open current version of MS Teams, Slack, VLC newer than 3.0.3, modern browser (MS Edge 114.0.1823.86 is the latest one good for me. Firefox 88, Chrome 95) etc. Also if I open website like Office 365, Teams etc.

So the same case - I suppose that specific app version or website does not change PWM frequence or modulation, do not intrudoce dithering. So may it be realted to dithering in such case?

So... do you have any idea on how to get help? You probably also known that looking for working setup, disabling all updates is not the way to go forever. It's even worse when trying to work - IT Marked in Poland is in bad share currently, most open positions are in corporate world, where you just have to work on company PC with all updates enabled etc.

What's interesting, the screens that are comfortable to me (especially Samsung's Galaxy screens) have a lot of blue tint in the white color- wich is also in opposite to usual experience.

Long story:

On my case everything was fine until 2021 (with one exception - after updating Lenovo T420 from perfectly usable Windows 7 to Windows 10 I had some problems on default driver - found thread on the internet, downgraded Intel display driver from 9.x to 8.x and everything was again fain - I was sure then that it's just a single, software issue). Then company where I worked changed the computers - I've got new Lenovo T14 with AMD Rzyen and noticed that I feel sick after just a few minutes of usage - dizziness, headache to the level where it was hard for me to to clearly think, communicate etc.

I worked with these synpotms (after work was able only to lie in bed) and switched tens of computers, screens etc - without effect. Even bought back my old company laptop from company, set it up - still the same problems. Finally, after few months, I've found usable Lenovo T580 with PWM-free scree, adeaquate Windows 10 version (1909, April 2020 updates), old Intel drivers.

Then... in May 2021 my Galaxy S9 was updated to the recent firmware - just after it, the phone bacame unusable. After downgrading it to April 2021 software (fortunately Bootloader bit wasn't bumped up) everything was fine. I worked on my T580 laptop (updates disabled), used Galaxy S9 with 04.2021 software.

Then.... 2022, where downward spiral started together with next software updates. First, Android apps - Google Maps, Youtube became unusable for me at the end of August 2022. OK - rollback to the latest usable, updates disabled, I'll live with that. Then, at the end of September 2022 MS Teams (crucial app for my work) update made the whole laptop unusable for me. Then Slack, Firefox etc.

I was stuck, but found another solution over the time - bought another T580 with the same display, tried different Linux distros. Kubuntu 20.04 with Chrome 107 was the setup which allowed me to use some websites/apps which were causing symptoms on Windows (Teams, Office 365 etc).

Current status: I had to quit my previous job as we over the time we were forced to work on Windows 10 with enabled updates and cannot apply for new one until I find solution for the vision-head related issue.

I also cannot use modern apps on my old phone. No Google Maps navigation (the working version is outdated and does not offer navigation anymore - alternatives like TomTom, Here Maps are also terrible for my head), no games, no Facebook, Signal, Whatsapp (all of them are causing issues). And I know that over the time next apps will be updated, old versions removed from support etc.

Health:

I have some seriosu health issues, which are most probably connected, however, werent an issue until 2021. First, the eyes - I have kerataconus and I have to wear hard contact lens on left eye. Here, I have almost perfect vision. Red eye was damaged by doctor's mistake several years ago, no contact lens here. So I have almost 100% vision on left eye, merely 30% on right one. Surely I do not have good binocular/stereo vision,

I also had head injury in 2015 (was hitten by the car on pedestrian crossing) - there was no brain damage, however, I had to have craniotomy in order to evacuate hematoma and have skull base surgery). In 2017 I had epilepsy episode after alcohol. No more seuzires since then, however, I am on anti-seizure drugs and do not dring alcohol. However, with the same neurogocal and eye problems everything was fine until 2021.

Some tips from my side:

Try to experiment also with the software and dig deep into this. In the case of mobile phones - the same phone may be perfectly usable with older firmware. You may even try to uninstall/downgrade most of the apps like Google Maps, Youtube, Chrome and check if it's better (that's at least my case). In the case of computers - sometimes one "bad" application running (in my case mostly Electron-based, or the ones which use WebKit to display web page in window) in the background, or even problematic data in your browser cache may kill good setup.

Best regards,

Tom

    floydian So may it be realted to dithering in such case?

    I think there is a problem of nervous habituation with pulsations/spectra of specific devices. When the human optical system receives new ones (updates with dithering, or new spectra for new displays) - it recognizes them as "dangerous"

    Same is you, I stucked in < 2020 year devices.

    Check my hardware thread there, some apps activates dithering regardless of whether it was disabled in the drivers -> https://ledstrain.org/d/2807-safe-hardware-pc-builds-list

        simplex When the human optical system receives new ones (updates with dithering, or new spectra for new displays) - it recognizes them as "dangerous"

        I don't think this is true for all people

        Although yes, in the past many devices I've tried have been immediately uncomfortable in the first days of using them (with many of them, especially modern IPS, never becoming comfortable even if I try to force myself to adjust).

        Yet once I actually started to find "truly good" screens — I found that I could immediately tell how good they were because I didn't need to adjust much at all!

        Recently I switched from my pretty comfortable laptop with a replaced AUO TN display (LED backlight) that I've been using for ~6 months…

        To two totally different (but also comfortable) displays at home: old Sharp LC-G5C26U 26" panel with VA display (CCFL backlight) and an old Sanyo Z2 3LCD projector.

        In just a few days I was able to move all my productivity over to these displays with no hassle and not much adjustment. The projector even surpasses my laptop in comfort by a noticeable amount — the monitor is a little bit better than the laptop in a lot of cases too.

        The Sharp needed some settings changed and digging through the service menu to adjust some hidden options, but that was it, the projector was pretty much immediately comfortable even in the very first minutes of using it.

        They now remain comfortable about a week and a half later.

        This makes me feel like the screens that require e.g. a month of adjustment probably still have a pretty strong underlying issue, compared to screens like these where I could adjust in under 2 days. (Even when I first turned them on, I knew right away I had found something good as I didn't get any "instant" discomfort).

        However, displays like the two I just mentioned are very rare to find (and you might have not yet experienced a different screen — aside from your currently usable ones — that's as good as these yet, for all I know)

        so it's easy to assume that it's "only" related to adjustment, when there's still a large chance that most screens you'll find will have some undesired processing being applied to the output.

        (Even many older or CCFL monitors are actually uncomfortable for me if I use them for 30+ minutes. It took so long for me to FINALLY find truly good screens I can remain productive on for the whole day — but thankfully I succeeded in the end!)

            Surely I do not have good binocular/stereo vision,

            Have you tried patching? It has offered significant relief for many of us. In my case it single handedly saved my career and I am able to still work my IT job (so far, fingers crossed) for several years now.

            I hear you on the updates causing issues. You only option is simply not to update anything you can control and then find workarounds if older versions stop working. It takes a little more effort and education to do it safely but it can be done.

            simplex

            i don't have any measuring equipment, but i agree with this idea, all screens i "immediately dislike" always have a strong red or yellowish tint to them, especially when side by side with old devices

            although there are some strainy bluish screens for me too, ones with reddish/yellowish white backgrounds is the majority of really uncomfortable screens for me, that kind of spectrum def contributes to that weird "modern screen" look

              dutv Blue light addiction?

              not only. Addiction for spectrums and flickering ( even IPS flickers: pixel inversion type, FRC type )

              the modern IPS spectrums, increased red component, when eye is much sensitive in green/red areas

              If you wear blue-reduction glasses, colors become yellow

              If you wear additional "red-reduction" glasses, color become green. And you can not work with it

              Thats why old screen with only blue peak is much comfortable, you can decrease it in monitor menu in option like "low blue light" etc

              The OLED / AMOLED spectrums looks much more better

              Blue peak shifted to the right, from blue to the light blue zone. And green & red is equeal.

              But

              AMOLED / OLED has constant flickering and you can not turn off it

                dev