Hello, I know this is close to the health thread, but could you share what helped you when you found some help? I know one user mentioned cannabis treatment (how exactly and what please, were each in different countries here), then there was Lutein, I found out about seesicksyndrome exercises but so far Im not far enough with them etc. Could you share your treatment stories with as much detail regarding the treatment as possible?

martin One observation I've had is some people that experience our symptoms have had thyroid, anxiety, or depression issues and treating these help the symptoms. I'm not saying that's our problems, but if you've not had a blood test to rule out thyroid issues, it might something to rule out.

Hello. I don't speak English very well, however I understand a little bit. The case is, I have this freaking problem too, since years now. The "Health" thread was very useful but I didn't read it in its entirety. Can someone give me the essentials of what you concluded of that thread?

ryans I have thyroid issues as well, however the majority of my close ones or friends also have thyroid issues yet they show no sensitivities with displays as we do. Regarding anxiety, I think it is very difficult to narrow as a cause. Don't most people in large cities have some kind of anxiety? My family doctor (pathologist) has been very supportive to the problem i have with displays. He has discussed with all the optometrists/ophthalmologists i have visited in the past. He believes relevant to my sensitivity that my eyes (meaning the eyes-brain system) seem not flexible enough to accommodate to the new technology of the displays. He also believes that lenses like the Crizal do block the excessive blue light, so he does not believe the excessive blue light to be the main cause. He has a hunch that perhaps my chronically blocked sinuses affect the performance of my eyes and of the neuro-muscular system in the area of the neck and head. It can't be a coincidence that when I get Dexa-Rhina Nasal Spray during a cold or allergy my tolerance to the new displays is way better.

If you don't know whats causing your problems, you're in danger of losing your job because of migraines and eyestrain, you can't spend time relaxing with your family anymore because of affected devices, you had to drop out of school, you can't go to the cinema anymore, texting your friends gives you a headache, I could go on forever! Even taillights so driving at night is painful! etc. etc. Our lives are so focused on screens now, you are bound to feel depressed and anxious if your sensitivity is severe. This doesn't mean depression and anxiety cause the problem. They just result from the huge stress. Don't mix up cause and effect!

degen This doesn't mean depression and anxiety cause the problem. They just result from the huge stress. Don't mix up cause and effect! Very well said

degen I think you described what my life was like for 6 years in that post.

Unfortunately, nothing but time seems to resolve an acute exposure to an LED monitor for me. The pain-behind-the-eyes, "brain-fried" feeling, etc can sometimes take a few days to go back to its previous state. Even at the lowest brightness levels, 10 minutes of exposure can create a 24-hour sharp headache. My only "solution" is total avoidance, just like a migraine sufferer would against known triggers (e.g. light, chocolate, perfumes, etc)

MagnuM Do all LED devices affect you or just recent ones?

ryans I first discovered the issue in December 2011 when I built a brand new gaming PC, and bought a Samsung SyncMaster S24A850DW. A beautiful-looking monitor it was, but it felt like I was staring into a flashlight when I was using it, even at the lowest brightness setting. Then at work when different colleague's monitors would get replaced, I would notice immediate issues when looking at the following displays: Dell P1913 Dell U2413 Dell U2713H Dell 1914S I also want to point out that I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with the displays above, as others use them all the time and don't complain. The issue is likely the one typing this message, lol. I was given a Dell U2410 at work in June 2011, and it gives me no problems (aside from usual eye strain and fatigue if you use it too long without breaks) at 0% brightness, "Warm" Preset Mode, and f.lux running at 5000K. Also interesting to note that even my Dell U2410 will give me issues that feel similar like the LED list above if I revert it back to it's default settings of 50% brightness, "Standard" Preset Mode, and no f.lux running; however, it will take orders of magnitude longer time to set in (i.e. 100 minutes versus 10 minutes). I will deliberately do this from time-to-time when working on color-sensitive work, and I just put up with the pain until I'm done my work, and then I revert it back. Because of my findings above, I theorize that I am light-sensitive in some unknown way. However, I seem to be more in the minority of people here, who are more suspecting issues such as temporal dithering, or certain graphics drivers, or Windows updates, etc.

Peter If you know you have chronic sinusitis, is there something you can do about it? Did you get all other modern tests done?

Treatments, desensitization, pills, exercises - solutions

JTL

MagnuM I had a chuckle as well when writing it.

reaganry

AGI feeling changes after only a few days with the wheel/circles! have to try the switching one now.

martin

reaganry Could you specify the exercises, a link to them with description? I cannot find it anywhere.

martin

JTL I do not have them yet. They should fix all accomodation and also divergence issues I have, as well as shortsightedness, which I know is not the cause of this problem, but the former two were already proven to be connected before.
It is possible that the dithering requires your eyes to reaccomodate the eyes all the time due to the display flicker (temporal dithering being part of it). If the accomodation is weak, it could cause eye strain -> migraine.
I will see when I test it properly. However before the iphone gave me immediate issues, with the glasses on after 30 minutes it seemed fine.
There is still a chance that nonetheless I am still sensitive to PWM flicker, but that could be more easily avoided now.

reaganry

martin they're all above in this post -all from AGI.. "Leo Angart"

martin

Regarding my own testing before I go again to see the optometrist to get glasses and exercise suggestions, I tried to cover my right eye with a patch and use an iphone 6s that was causing issues. So far it seems good after half an hour. Not perfect, but not unbearably painful. Needless to say that it also takes some practice, as Ive noticed that when I KNOW some screens cause me issues, I remember the issues immediately when I see the screen and the pain onset is faster and stronger - sometimes just remembering the migraine pain can bring on a small migraine or similar feeling.

I recommend trying to cover one of your eyes, or both interchangeably (completely, eye patch ideally, no light in) and use some device. This way you could confirm or rule out that the issue is connected to eye vergence.
Good article about connection - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266949405_Convergence_Insufficiency_Associated_with_Migraine_A_Case_Series

Also make sure the device doesnt use PWM, as if youre sensitive to that, vergence or not, it might give you issues.

JTL

martin

martin to cover my right eye with a patch

My right eye shakes (nystagmus). It always has since I was born but it got worse in 2011 when this issue started. Cannabis is the ONLY medicine that helps with it, not 100% but it seems to be getting better in absence of the medicine as well.

reaganry

martin ARRR

reaganry

martin did you try this three thumbs one to strengthen divergence? seems to help for me immediately .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1hplhaPHoA

What if our dithering/flickering here conveys a 'magic eye 3D-like' false depth message to the brain, causing us to focus behind the screen (overconverge).

(seee also lenticular printing, stereogram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostereogram)-

interesting (to me) this effect was discovered by Wheatsone. his name come up all the time for me - bridge rectifier(turns ac to dc, scales), telegraph, speed of electricity, spectroscopy, invented the concertina(!)

more exercises here ... http://www.tedmontgomery.com/the_eye/VT/therapy.html

martin

JTL I didnt know that, that seems like a clear connection.

reaganry

i wonder how VR could fit into this divergence scenario- with the separate screens for each eye

dyungim

reaganry

Any idea what a "typical" distance between thumbs is for someone who doesn't have divergence issues?

reaganry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4gfSiRkjlY

Neo is not the one, btw.

reaganry

to see the magic eye/autostereograms people have to "learn to train their eyes to decouple eye convergence from lens focusing"

The eyes normally focus and converge at the same distance in a process known as accommodative convergence. That is, when looking at a faraway object, the brain automatically flattens the lenses and rotates the two eyeballs for wall-eyed viewing. It is possible to train the brain to decouple these two operations. This decoupling has no useful purpose in everyday life, because it prevents the brain from interpreting objects in a coherent manner. To see a man-made picture such as an autostereogram where patterns are repeated horizontally, however, decoupling of focusing from convergence is crucial.[2]

By focusing the lenses on a nearby autostereogram where patterns are repeated and by converging the eyeballs at a distant point behind the autostereogram image, one can trick the brain into seeing 3D images. If the patterns received by the two eyes are similar enough, the brain will consider these two patterns a match and treat them as coming from the same imaginary object. This type of visualization is known as wall-eyed viewing, because the eyeballs adopt a wall-eyed convergence on a distant plane, even though the autostereogram image is actually closer to the eyes.[21] Because the two eyeballs converge on a plane farther away, the perceived location of the imaginary object is behind the autostereogram. The imaginary object also appears bigger than the patterns on the autostereogram because of foreshortening.

martin

reaganry Hello, thank you for the wholesome desciption. I have not tried it yet, as the specialist I am seeing mentioned that the exercies need to be crafted and adjusted in relation to my specific problem only (convergence excess, hidden esothropia, accomodation insufficiency). I have the glasses on the way in two weeks, I will test them for a month or two and then he will see how he needs to craft those exercises.
Hopefully then, this problem might be resolved, or lessed to enough degree that I can use any modern tech for work-amount of time.
I have to stress again - if you or any of you here have 20/20 eyesight, good ophtalmology results etc., it means NOTHING. Eyesight and VISION are two different things. You need to find an optometrist that can find possible hidden issuses with your eyes. A good article for clarification is here - http://www.children-special-needs.org/vision_therapy/esophoria_reading.html

Why the new displays cause this issue to surface and give headaches? I dont know, nor do I know if this will be the final solution. It is possible that the new tech triggers this issue more than the old one. My current theory that the specialist finds interesting is that with flickering displays, the need to reaccomodate and keep eyes fixed on letters while reading is higher (remember PWM and the blurry fonts and words example from tftcentral?). Therefore if one lacks in this department, PWM, flicker and who knows what other issue will sent his vision into overload.
The issue I have is of about 5-10% prevalence in society, which would also go with the estimated numbers we often see on PWM sensitivity and on the intel forum eyestrain.
He also has a person under treatment who has the same issue as me, but instead of migraines he gets very bad vertigo. The reaction of each person might be very individual.

He said that with new tech and VR, more and more people will probably start having these issues and find their way into his office.

diop

martin if it is an issue with both eyes accommodating/converging together then you would think that viewing a screen with a patch over one eye would eliminate the issue?

if it doesn't solve it, I would imagine any 20/20 individual with both eyes functioning well would see everything ok but then with one eye's vision occluded then notice the flickering/dithering/PWM?

JTL

martin new tech and VR

Well there was one person here talking about the Oculus Rift. I imagined it to be quite bad because the early units were just modified Samsung AMOLED screens with severe PWM but the "usable" report was just a single person so more data is needed.

Seagull

Something weird for y'all to mull over, I assure you this is 100% true.

I have similar screen issues to everyone here, phones are a massive issue, newer graphics cards, keep to a few specific monitors I know I can use etc etc otherwise I will suffer migraines.

Sunflower Oil, whenever I eat it, regardless of what with/form, my screen problems become 10x worse and suddenly I can't use any screens without pain for a few days.

martin

So I have the glasses, and it does help. A lot. As much as solving the whole issue, but I dont want to get ahead of myself. They are for my specific case and intensity of convergence excess and accomodation insufficiency. I am not sure whether I am still sensitive to PWM (might be), I havent tested it yet. But the iphone 6s plus that was giving me terrible issues before is now fine. Completely above 50% brightness and seems to be slightly less comfy below 50%, but I am not sure if it has PWM or if Im just making it up. I get some slight headpressure, but its easy to forget about it when reading or doing something on it. Switching screen brings about slight discomfort that slowly fades. Old screens and safe browsers (waterfox) are still most comfortable though, but even here I sometimes get slight strain, mostly from getting used to the glasses.
They only work for 20cm-1m so far, only made for close work now. The optometrist said that I need to take 3 weeks to get used to them and then we can do specific exercises, so I can handle phones and screens for some time even without them (the fist two days of using them, my right eye, which is the lazy one, hurt terribly even on slight touch). They also serve as therapeutic tool, as they relax the tense muscles, so when I wear them all day and take them off, I can tolerate the bad displays longer and better.
I strongly recommend for everyone to find an OPTOMETRIST who will give you 1-2 hours of his time in measurements. Travel if you have to. I had to take a 3,5hr train ride couple times to see him. Theres two people who do this properly in my whole country (10million). He has a PhD in biophysics and does optometry as a main job. I think, after three years, my issue might be solved now. But I will see how it develops I still might be prone to migraines, or am, and have to be careful of other possible triggers or get it solved via the SCM stretching, massage, acupuncture and other possible means.

The theory? I have no idea. There is something that triggers hidden eye issues in new displays and makes them manifest. Why I cant figure out, neither can the optometrist. The new stuff seems to give a lot less to focus on and lock focus on. Dithering, gloss, glare, anti aliasing, pwm, who knows what else. But hes doing research and also wants to experiment with VR.

I would love to hear of more people having this issue solved, as I know how terrible it is in daily life. You can be the strongest and fittest person ever, but headaches like that will make you crippled, tired and weak. Ive been marked as crazy, people make fun of me, very few believed me, I became really depressed and demotivated and I was expecting to end up as a manual worker after building my education and career for 10 years, and leave all my life behind as most would think I went insane with a change like that. I respect manual work, but I would be missing those 10 years of experience and all my friends who do completely different things.🙂

JTL

martin Very cool.

I'm getting my eyes retested in nearly two weeks, What should I ask my optometrist about?

I wonder where I could find a similar optometrist or opthamologist who knows about this in BC, Canada and/or Washington State US.

Seanicus

martin Very interesting to hear your experiences, I can relate to almost all of it. It's almost like a mental handicap that people can't see and struggle to empathise with. Sounds like we're in the same boat with convergence/divergence issues, and I totally agree that modern screens are pushing people like us over an eye strain threshold and into migraine town. How are you managing at the moment having used prisms long term and done divergence exercises?

martin

JTL I would describe your problem as best as possible and mention that there was already a case (before me) where one person solved it by exercising for convergence insufficiency. He should test for vergence in general (there is convergence insufficiency, excess, and divergence insufficiency and excess, theyre not interchangeable, all are from different muscle tensions). He should also test for accomodation, how fast you are able to reaccomodate when looking far and near etc., mine was measuring with stopwatch and also distance with a meter.
The glasses I have now dont allow me to converge properly for distance, so when I try that, my eyes start hurting similarly as when looking at a problematic display. I have different problem with distance and with near. So eventually the glasses will have to be for distance on top and near on bottom. And who knows what the exercises will do, so they might need to be redone. Its not a complete solution yet, but the difference to my previous state is so singnificant, that its the most progress Ive made in the last three years and a definite connection.

If you cant find anyone, find articles online about those four issues of vergence and try to write people who wrote them to recommend you somewhere. I ran into ophtalmologists saying this is bullshit, i ran into an optometrist for kids who had no clue. Dont get discouraged. My neurologist has no idea a discipline like optometry even exists and shes on the board of national headache association... My migraine doctor had no clue what the writing from the report means, and he was a GOOD doctor who tested for acupressure points and everything else and treated several migraine patients in the past. He found some spots and trigger points that I will eventually try to solve too, if this doesnt work completely.

JTL

martin Thanks so much.

I'll keep note of all this and hope my doctor understands after I explain all this to them.

ryans

martin What exercises do you do for convergence insufficiency? Pencil push-ups? Did you have any symptoms of convergence insufficiency before your screen eye strain started?

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