So Microsoft did an update, and now my XBox One (original version, rather old) is actively flickering. Like, it's visible even to people without crazy bad eyes. It might be time to update to an XBox One S... yet another expense I wasn't anticipating this summer. 🙁

Well that really sucks... Be aware that some people including me cannot play the S, even on the monitor or TV which does not give any strain. I tried it many times and it was bad.

So, there was a long saga and I ditched that XBox One. But it turns out that because I was in the beta program I had just gotten an update earlier than everyone else. As of the October update last week, my new unit is also flickering. I'm going to use a USB drive and downflash it to the August update... and then lock it to prevent further updates. Don't know how long that will hold me, since eventually it will require updating to play online games due to security patches. Fingers crossed.

Gurm can you point out a place where it's easy to spot the flickering? Like the home menu? Have you tried the Xbox one x?

Link XBox One X has no obvious flickering, but... it hurts. Newer ATI chip, of course. As for the XBox One original... yeah on the home screen. It's easier to see on my plasma. Everything just seems a little shimmery...

Gurm You mind listing game consoles you haven't had issues with? I know you find the ps3 golden.

Link XBox 360 was fine. Wii U was... less awesome, but not truly bad. XBox One was fine for a while until more recent updates. PS3 was fine. All consoles older than XB360/PS3 were fine (includes original Wii).

JTL This has GOT to be software caused. Since updates made a known good device "bad". I have also had that experience with older laptops that were fine on an older OS version but hurt on current ones. I just wish we could pin it down and turn it off.

hpst I agree. They probably updated the video drivers, turned on ... something ... which made it bad. Some games have always done the same thing, and hurt more to play than other games. Not at all sure why/how. I wish I had the wherewithal (I would have, 20 years ago) to get a dev unit, decompile the driver stack, and figure it out. 🙁

Gurm Where do we go from here? I am a firm believer its the same root technical cause behind all the strain for the majority of us. Whether that is dithering or whatever it is likely the same thing whether we are talking computers, phones, consoles etc. Any idea how to hire someone to determine what this is? I am pretty sure I have seen your name in the Apple thread that is 10 years old so know you've bee suffering this for a long time...we need to take some concrete action.

hpst I really wish I knew. Drivers are complicated, Intel claims they found NOTHING when they analyzed their drivers from a known good to known bad config. I don't buy that - clearly something is very different and we know roughly when it happened. That might be a place to start. Find a known good and known bad config. The problem is that this is cropping up in so many different ways - drivers for some, chip iterations for others, VBIOS settings for others, and options for another group. On my phone (HTC One m8, Verizon), updating the "firmware" (not really firmware on an android device) from the version that shipped with Android 5.02 (Lollipop) to the one that supports Android 6 (Marshmallow) was what did it - this isn't really firmware in the traditional sense, but rather it's the low-level drivers for the hardware. Even just puttering around the bootloader screens hurt after that update. Sunspark found that on some versions of the device there was an alternate driver set for the Harman/Kardon equipped models that made his ok to look at. That didn't work for me. But in that case it was CLEARLY the low-level display drivers that broke the device for me. No idea how to disassemble those, but I have both sets. HTC cannot be reached for comment, but there are a ton of hackers out there... On Macs it is clearly the screen - my 2011 Core i5 Macbook Pro was fine until I sent it to Apple to get the screen assembly replaced. It came back hurting my eyes. Some Macs have "magic" screen/chip combos (early 2013 has a GeForce 6xx and are great, late 2013 has a GeForce 7xx and isn't). Apple not only doesn't care - on their forums their moderators mocked us openly and when we complained about that WE got banned. Apple doesn't give two shits. On nVidia cards it's the vBIOS - MSI 970's are fine, but other newer versions aren't. 960 and 950, being newer chips, usually aren't. Will nVidia tell us what they changed? Who knows? On ATI we're pretty sure it's drivers, when we used to be able to turn off dithering it was ok. But that was a while ago, and it was for an older version of the card, so who knows? It could be vBIOS or hardware for them too. AMD is unlikely to listen to us, but I guess we could ask. Windows 10 introduced compositing. It's ABSOLUTELY the support for composition layers that makes it hurt, since the initial release did not, and all versions right up until they introduced that support didn't. Newest version (1807) is better than previous versions were, I can use it for 15-20 minutes without trouble, but I can use 15xx all day with the same hardware. I submitted a bug report to MS. No response. On my XBox One, Destiny 1 is fine. Destiny 2 hurts. I got used to whatever they were doing, and could play for an hour without issues, until the latest update from MS/Bungie. Now it hurts again. If I put in Destiny 1 it is fine, no issues at all. Clearly there's some new video mode they are using. Some games use it, most don't. Will Bungie tell us what that is? Probably not. Where am I going with this? I don't know. I have no idea how to proceed, but we're rapidly approaching a day when I can't work or make a living and it scares me.

XBox One

Gurm

Seagull true. Although at the MS convention, I was exhausted and killing time at the end of the day. But in that instance I was playing an XBox One X on a MONITOR. I think before I rule anything out I'm going to plug this S into a known-good monitor and see how it looks at a stupid fast refresh rate...

SeniorTaquito

Gurm to follow up on my last post. After not playing much xbox one s since October when Black Ops 4 came out, I turned it on and updated. I tried playing the master chief collection and eye strain kicked in right away on the home screen and loading screens. My eyes were bloodshot after playing a few rounds of slayer and I had to give up.

Gurm

SeniorTaquito it might be the latest updates killing it. I'm going to try rolling mine back to last summer. I don't know how long I can prevent updates before some games become unplayable, but if I have to block the updates indefinitely I will.

SeniorTaquito

Gurm haven't logged in for a while since reading through a lot of the posts increases my anxiety and I lose hope. Did rolling back the update work? I haven't turned my xbox on since my last post. I was always upset that nintendo didn't keep up with the other consoles but now I'm happy about it. Switch is the only current gen console I can play without issue.

degen

Gurm Can you use any software / hardware combo of Xbox One currently?

Gurm

Hey I haven't responded to this in a while. I have good and bad days. On good days, I can play the current release of XBox (original hardware, not S or X) and on bad days I can't. I never got around to rolling back the update, and as a result haven't gamed much on the XBox One in the past... year, as it turns out.

diop

Gurm I've been thinking about picking up a used Xbone for media/gaming but keep feeling discouraged everytime I see reports like this.

There is an upshot to all of this; as this issue is now ubiquitous on PC/Games Console/Smartphone then it's not tied to a particular manufacturer/driver, correct? Phones aren't using these types of chips at all but still induce strain. A software update causes it to go bad.

So essentially I think a new rendering technique has sneaked it's way into all devices, possibly in the wake of 4k/HDR to allow for more vibrant color. Dithering?

O/T slightly but I also notice now with media players (MPC-HC/Kodi) if I use the latest version it induces some strain. However if I use a circa 2010/2011 version it is fine. So regardless of drivers or OS these rendering techniques are creeping into software (like some here have difficulty with web browsers).

Gurm

diop That's pretty much it, spot on. I suspect there's some new, ubiquitous low-level rendering technique. The odd occasion when we find a usable device from the last few years, it's something like Paranoid Android where they are using a stripped-down linux distribution to build their OS.

Even cable boxes are starting to bother me, sometimes. My wife has a Roku, and some apps hurt while others don't - but the same apps on my LG smart tv, or my PS3, or my XB360 are just fine.

So it's new OS'es, new chips, but I strongly STRONGLY suspect the display code.

AgentX20

I'm fine on an original Xbox 360 Elite console. I tried beta Xbox One hardware and it caused low levels of eye strain.

As you say, it is apparent that new rendering techniques are creeping in everywhere.

JTL

Gurm Paranoid Android where they are using a stripped-down linux distribution to build their OS.

Pretty sure Paranoid Android is just modified AOSP from Google. Not "stripped down Linux".

A few ideas that jump out to me.

Drivers and/or firmware for the GPU chipset could be different between OS builds
"Base" AOSP version of "good" Paranoid Android ROMs is older from "bad" versions on other devices

Gurm

JTL Sorry, "stripped down" isn't the right term. "Bone stock", maybe?

JTL

Gurm Sure. The point I was trying to make is that standard "desktop" Linux and Android have many technical differences.

Plsnostrain

Played through gears of wars 5 on xbox one x. Sat for 5 hours staring. Compared to my ryzen laptop , maybe 2 % strain. Nothing to complain about for me.

Gurm

Plsnostrain I think they might have gotten better. See, the XBox One is a Windows box, but the version of Windows 10 it runs lags WAY behind. Like, far enough behind that it was running Windows 8 long after Windows 10 came out. I want to say the XBox OS version of Win10 lags about a year behind, but they may have tightened that up recently. So just like Windows 10 v1803/1809/1903 are "ok" for me (as in I can use for a few hours without dying) I think the XBox might be better now. I hope so, because I really want an XBox One X. In the next couple weeks I'll sink some time into my Elite and see how it feels.

degen

I had a chance to test Xbox One X and PS4 Slim side by side on my Panasonic ST60, and the Xbox One X is significantly more comfortable. Playable, even. Previously I found Xbox One X unusable (Spring 2018ish I believe). Games tested on XB1X were Forza Horizon 4 and Deliverance: Kingdom Come. On the PS4 Slim I tested LTOU Remastered. TBH XB1X output looked pretty clean. One big difference is that this time I used the XB1X on a 1080p screen and last time I was making use of a 4K HDR capable display. Also as @Gurm points out Windows rendering may have changed between now and over a year ago.

degen

degen Trying some more games. RDR2 is more straining than the other games I tried on XB1X. Super Lucky's Tale was comfortable.

Gurm

degen I absolutely think that Microsoft has "fixed" something. I now work all day at work (with frequent breaks) on Windows 10 x1909 (latest build) but it's been pretty usable lately. XBox always lags about 6 months behind, so if I had to guess I'd say the latest version on the XBone is probably 1903 or maybe even 1809. My XBox One got BAD around the October 2018 update, which I assume was actually a 2017 build (known for being awful on the eyes). I can fire it up and pull a version number and see if we can cross-reference that.

AgentX20

Gurm I absolutely think that Microsoft has "fixed" something.

Interesting, as I've had something of the opposite experience. I've gone from 100% OK to more like 70% sometime just before 1909 came out. That said there were some external factors at play that I'm still working through eg new glasses.

degen

I can't justify spending time (or eye/brain "resources") with this causing low-level stress. I can play here and there on the Xbox for a limited time, but I'm always butting up against my limits, and that's always in the back of my mind and that's not a pleasant or relaxing experience, which is the only reason I would game to begin with.

Luki99

I have never had an xbox one but could use PS4 on 43 sony FHD TV all days... when switched to 50" 4k Sony headaches.. that sux. Strangly no issues on PC connected to same TV.

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