Using back windows 10

tck175

hi , i don’t know why I feel eyestrain and headaches when using back windows 10 but the windows is newly installed. I even tried to install windows 7 again , I still feel eyestrain and headaches. And I just use the Microsoft basic display adapter and haven’t installed the display driver. So the problem is newly installed windows , no matter windows 7 or windows 10.

I am thinking some default settings that can’t be changed when windows are newly installed. What display settings can be changed before the Windows’s installation? Many thanks ! I am desperately looking for solution.

By the way , I am fine with the desktop in my office , Lenovo think Centre m93p made in 2013, the windows is not newly installed but installed in 2020.

I am fine with watching TV too . It maybe the problem of display signals and display sources !

Is it related to the timing controller?

A timing controller (TCON) is an electronic device, often found in display panels like TVs and monitors, that receives image data and generates the precise timing signals needed for the screen's drivers to display the image correctly

K-Moss

tck175 It doesn't make a lot of sense that Windows 11 would cause massive eye strain while Windows 10 is benign. I've only ever read things like that on this forum. There is no objective evidence there is a big difference between any of these windows versions in how they render the screen, is there? Just seems like people get obsessed with all kinds of minor details while the vast majority of people know nothing of any of these matters and seem to get along quite fine. Here, a slight OS update or upgrade can make a whole setup completely unusuable. I am not convinced the issues go beyond placebo and nocebo, but I am willing to learn. My reply is critical because I want to be shown objective evidence I am wrong.

I use Ubuntu, and there was one on here saying Ubuntu was fine until he got to a certain portion of the installation, and then it was no good. Now I don't claim Ubuntu is the best for eye comfort, but it does seem good enough for me without any major problems. I update it regularly.

JTL

K-Moss It doesn't make a lot of sense that Windows 11 would cause massive eye strain while Windows 10 is benign. I've only ever read things like that on this forum. There is no objective evidence there is a big difference between any of these windows versions in how they render the screen, is there? Just seems like people get obsessed with all kinds of minor details while the vast majority of people know nothing of any of these matters and seem to get along quite fine. Here, a slight OS update or upgrade can make a whole setup completely unusuable. I am not convinced the issues go beyond placebo and nocebo, but I am willing to learn. My reply is critical because I want to be shown objective evidence I am wrong.

There are allegedly certain rendering issues between versions of Windows 10, so something having changed between 10 to 11 isn't outside the realm of possibilities either.

there was one on here saying Ubuntu was fine until he got to a certain portion of the installation, and then it was no good

Link?

ocean10

K-Moss

There are many of us here with problems after certain versions of Windows 10 and in many cases all versions of Windows 11. These issues have been life changing for many of us. You can find forums where this has happened on iOS, Mac OS, and Android versions for people as well. I would say the majority of the people here didn't even know these issues existed before they started having them. The minor details of software updates were something they had never even thought about let alone obsessed over.

Not sure what kind of objective evidence you'd be looking for. It's crazy to me that a small OS update (at least small on paper) can make a previously perfect device completely unusable. But it happened to me and many others on these forums (although in the grand scheme of the world this seems relatively rare). I think pretty much all of us have no idea WHY it's happening. There are a lot of hypothesizes but as far as I've seen nobody knows for sure.

I'm glad for you that you don't have these problems. But for those of us who do it's real and it sucks.

tck175

K-Moss Thanks . I have tried to use a Ubuntu already by an USB drive without installation , but I still feel eyestrain and headaches . I I know why?

ensete

K-Moss It doesn't make a lot of sense that Windows 11 would cause massive eye strain while Windows 10 is benign. I've only ever read things like that on this forum. There is no objective evidence there is a big difference between any of these windows versions in how they render the screen, is there?

Windows 11 significantly increased the integration of DirectX 12 and the UI. This is how Windows 11 accomplishes things like the curved window borders and the new font rendering on the Taskbar. The new Start Menu and Taskbar are entirely rendered through Direct Draw now. while. for example, all the fonts on Windows 10 were still rendered via GDI. DirectX12 is a primary reason newer versions of Windows causes eye strain in people who got no eye strain from older versions of Windows.

Source: I work for a Fortune 50 company who has a Master Services Agreement with Microsoft, so when I opened my ADA case for Windows usage, I was put in touch with Windows Developers who work at Microsoft. They confirmed all this for me, as well as confirmed there is no way to "fix" it, they cannot decouple DirectX12 from Win 10 or 11. We tried a few experiments trying to boot from an install disk and slipstream specially modified versions of DirectWrite and DirectDraw DLL's but they never resulted in a stable system (although did significantly improve eyestrain when they did boot at all confirming it as the culprit)

K-Moss

JTL tck175 says (https://ledstrain.org/d/3684-serious-eyestrain-and-migraine/10):

when I looked at the BIOS setup page in an old desktop computer (Lenovo M93p,2013) , I felt no problem. But when it was loading into the windows first page , the problem started. I don’t know why ? I even tried Ubuntu as above , it was the same . Is BIOS affecting the display card ?

But it is strange that when I looked at the loading page , it was fine . But suddenly, the screen was flashed once , and I started to experience migraine. Don’t know why!

K-Moss

ocean10 Well, I ask everyday people on a continual basis if they have any eye strain with their devices, and they tell me they don't. And then I wonder why 95%+ of those on here are men.

One told me his brother uses a phone that he can't use and he uses it fine because 1. he doesn't use it more than 30 minutes per day and 2. he doesn't have a history of "digital abuse."

The PWM_Sensitive subreddit also is heavily male dominated.

Also, the women I talk with are clueless about computers/phones. They don't know anything, let alone anywhere close to the technical detail we read on sites like this. They just use the devices and have no issues.

ocean10

K-Moss

I don't know anyone "in person" with these issues either. I'd guess that applies to many others here as well. Are you saying because you don't know anyone personally then the issues don't exist?

I don't have any data on the male/female split. It would be interesting if you have some data on that because every little clue has the potential to help. Could be anything from physiological differences, to demographics of computer careers, to propensity to participate in web forums. But data on that could be interesting for sure.

What brought you to LEDStrain in the first place? Do you have screen issues?

Donux

I have been switching back and forward from windows 11 to windows 10 to windows 10 21H2 to linux mint. Usually it starts from positive feeling, but then it all goes down the drain once I start working daily on the machine. Fatique, slight brain fog etc. Weirdly enough, I find windows 11 good for maintaining focus, yet after long period of work, I feel severely ungrounded with it. But in my case, I know that my machine has hardware flicker, so digging into OS is just pointless.

jordan

ensete Very interesting. What OS/build or tricks do you use to use a PC comfortably today? Are you able to share those modified directwrite and directdraw dlls for testing purposes only? What happens if you were to play a game on steam forcing it to dx11 with windows 11? Would that be fine in the game only or does the OS still mess the game up too?

Reinhard62

ensete

Thank you for this super important information.

Maybe even K-Moss will finally accept that there are important differences between Windows 10 and 11. And that Windows 11 can very well be the culprit for your eye problems. (Which it also was in my case.)

ocean10

Wow. This is interesting.

Were you/they able to understand exactly "what" was different? I'm not familiar with GDI or Direct Draw but could they tell what is happening that is different between the two? It would be fascinating to know what the trigger is here. Especially since visually I can't tell a difference.

Does DirectX 12 affect later updates of Windows 10 as well?

What was the eventual resolution for you? Sounds like you've had the most actual contact with people "in the know" at Microsoft than pretty much anyone else I've read on here or other forums.

ensete

ocean10 Were you/they able to understand exactly "what" was different?

Millions of things are different. DirectX12 is an entirely different architecture than DirectX11, and OS versions have tens/hundreds of thousands of commits between them

Does DirectX 12 affect later updates of Windows 10 as well?

Yes. All Windows 10 versions use DirectX12 for the OS.

What was the eventual resolution for you? Sounds like you've had the most actual contact with people "in the know" at Microsoft than pretty much anyone else I've read on here or other forums.

I use Windows 7

Are you able to share those modified directwrite and directdraw dlls for testing purposes only?

No, they are the property of Microsoft

What happens if you were to play a game on steam forcing it to dx11 with windows 11?

That accomplishes nothing. DirectX 11 on Steam is just a compatibility layer. It does not change anything with the OS.

From kmoss point of view, still no arguments.. he trust for science or microsoft articles only lul

You need to understand that most people have no idea how things work, they just go with what makes sense to their gut, then this being the internet double down on it because there is no in person consequences for being wrong.

simplex

Reinhard62

From kmoss point of view, still no arguments.. he trust for science or microsoft articles only lul

Donux

Actually metabolic desease and blood sugar issues will definitely affect eye health. You should all get checked. Including checking high blood preasure.

ocean10

ensete

Were you able to use Windows 10 at any point? I didn't have any issues (at least on the machines I was using) until May 2024. Interesting in that it sounds like DirectX 12 was used from the beginning for Windows 10.

Are you able use Windows 7 in the environment of your Fortune 50 company?

Reinhard62

ensete

Yes, Windows 10 also uses DirectX 12.

But I have no eyestrain whatsoever with Windows 10 21H2 (updates enabled) and a lot of eyestrain with Windows 11 (using the same hardware, of course).

So not everything seems to depend on DirectX 12. Or DirectX 12 behaves differently under Windows 10 and 11.

cooldudz

ensete what windows 7 build do you use?

Edit: Nvm. Didn't realize windows 7 is literally just one thing, unlike 10 or 11 where they are different "builds".

ensete

Reinhard62 Or DirectX 12 behaves differently under Windows 10 and 11.

It does

jordan

Just wanted to drop this here for any interested - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/4135155/eye-pain-does-windows-10-apply-software-driven-har?forum=windows-all&referrer=answers