After I updated my previously unproblematic Thinkpad X220 to this build it became unbearable for me to look at with pain behind the eyes beggining after just after 2 minutes of usage, just like with my MBP 13 2014. To make matters worse problems persisted even as I downgraded it to 1803 or tried various Linux distros on it. To verify it is the cause I installed it on my old AMD laptop and it was the same thing there. No OS / driver change helps here either. Any ideas what might be happenning here? Is persistent change like that even possible?

Oh god. I have some ideas. Did the Windows 10 update also upgrade GPU drivers and/or BIOS/VBIOS with it? it's a long shot but when I was doing my dithering research I managed to get a laptop into a persistent state where the screen was flashing with certain colors even after a restart.

@"JTL"#p7548 Suprisingly no, Intel driver is still in the same 2016 version as before, same thing with AMD. If drivers were the case, I think AMD laptop would still be okay I tried installing 2015 drivers on X220, but it made no difference. Only obvious change to the graphics is the appearance of "Windows HD Color settings" menu in Settings app which manages HDR capability my X220 is obviously not equipped with.

Keep me updated. This is concerning.

If you completely reformat the hard drive and put on an older OS, is it still not working? I'm not talking about 1803, I'm talking about a known-good OS like Win7 or Win10/1511. I can't imagine that the VBIOS is updateable on the X220, that's an ancient machine (although I love mine also!) but I've heard tell about Intel fuckery of late.

@"Gurm"#p7553 Downgrading to 1511 LTSB was thr first thing I tried, same story here. I have no idea what to do with it other than installing latest insider build and hoping they will fix it at some point. I'm using ditherig now and it looks like it's functioning - the color banding is more visible, however it does not ease the eyestrain. After experience with Macbook i thought dithering was my problem and now I'm not so sure.

> @"zlhr"#p7554 I'm using ditherig now and it looks like it's functioning - the color banding is more visible, however it does not ease the eyestrain. After experience with Macbook i thought dithering was my problem and now I'm not so sure. Well that is really depressing since that's my last hope personally. I have ruled out everything else on the radar both tech and health. If dithering removal doesn't solve it, and I have seen a few examples that make it a questionable solution where people claim no improvement, then I am screwed as I don't have the health to do anything but work on a computer. I'd happily go live on a beach with no tech but I cannot physically manage.

@"zlhr"#p7554 What do you mean by "downgrading"? If you literally reformatted the machine, I just don't know what it could be. Are you using the newest Intel drivers? They are known bad - see the thread regarding them. It is INCREDIBLY unlikely that Windows 1809 somehow did something to the VBIOS on a random laptop.

@"Gurm"#p7556 I've completely formatted it. Yeah, I do not understand how it could work, but somehow the problem persists through OS installations.

@"zlhr"#p7557 You must have kept something. Video drivers, perhaps? Or it's "in your head", as in you need a day away from the system to reset your eyes. I just don't believe that the X220 firmware could have been updated by Windows. Simply not possible. The BIOS flasher for that machine is a misery, requires a reboot in DOS, etc.

@"Gurm"#p7558 No, even using Linux it is still present. I've been exclusively using a borrowed laptop for last week and when I came back to my Thinkpad symptoms immidiately started again.

Windows 10 build 1809 problem

SAH

Lauda89 Interesting discovery ! So I tried dxdiag, and my HD530 is WDDM 2.1 and my 940MX driver gives me WDDM 2.4. I'll test different drivers to check if there's any difference
Keep me updated about your tests as well 🙂

AgentX20 "(I tried installs of Win 7 and Win 10 and they all exhibited the same problem)" Do you mean you tried to get back to older versions and the strain was persistant ?
Indeed your prescription may have an impact on it. What W10 version have you kept in the end ?

AgentX20

SAH Do you mean you tried to get back to older versions and the strain was persistant ?

Yes, that was my observation. Couldn't explain it for the life of me.

Indeed your prescription may have an impact on it. What W10 version have you kept in the end ?

I'm OK on the current/latest build

NotAlone

For those here who have eyestrain on windows depending on version number, if you have Nvidia I just posted a registry dithering free hack. At the end of the video it give some info about changes on windows version number. In case someone want to try:

https://ledstrain.org/d/854-nvidia-registry-hack-for-dithering

SAH

NotAlone I'm not sure my problem is related to this specific dithering as I have it even deactivating my Nvidia GPU, it persists even with ditherig, and it specifically appeared during that 1809 update.
But if it helps some people it's good 🙂

SAH

I think I found out about (one of) my problems. During this Windows upgrade, I was going through a stressful moment in my daily life and I felt my TMJ disorder getting way worse. I kept on using my computer (with build 1803) with mild strain. I decided to use my dental protector at night as I haven't used it so much, and tried some stuff to relax during the day.
I can totally use my computer again, as before...
So I can fairly say I found some of my triggers, stress and TMJ disorder. Maybe it prevents my eyes from working well or being aligned.
Thanks to all for listening and helping 🙂

PS : It doesn't solve my problem with all the screens though, just some that suddenly became unusable.

NotAlone

SAH Good to know you found a way to relief you aches.

Stress is always something which amplifies every little problem we have. It can be to make us pessimists or worse muscular problems or, in that case, sensibility for whatever causes eyestrain. By the way, what is a TMJ disorder?

Hey SAH, I am preparing a post with a gather of links to forums for different platforms and this way make it easy for the rest of the users here to write on each thread to make it more visible, and I need someone with Windows 10 to do it directly to windows feedback service. Could you do it? If yes, say it and I will explain every detail to you

SAH

Sunspark That's exactly what I have. My jaw is quite noisy when I open my mouth, and without the protector I may hurt my teeth at night. Did you meet any doctor for your TMJ disorder ?
And do you see any link between your TMJ disorder and eyestrain ?

NotAlone You're right about stress making everything worse.
About helping you, I'm really busy lately and won't have time to be part of something bigger than just a couple of messages a week here, sorry :/
I hope you'll find someone with more time.

Sunspark

TMJ is temporo-mandibular joint. It's when your jaw isn't aligned properly. I also have a dental protector and it helps at night. It looks like the same thing the basketball players wear, that transparent horseshoe which is only worn on the upper jaw. I often wake up and find my teeth embedded in it.

NotAlone

Sunspark Ah ok, I also have a dental protector. In fact, some users here also have it, and if it wasn't because bruxism is so common in these stressfull era, I would say it has something to do with eyestrain problems.

@Sunspark @AgentX20 Would one of you two have 10 minuts to send a message to windows staff through the Windows 10 feedback option to warn them about the problems we are suffering due their update on the graphic layer managment? With this we will have a way to gives "likes" to that question and make it more visible. Also, we will tag one Windows developer who will support us (I think). Is the better idea to get the attention of Windowdos developer it comes to my mind. COuld you spend 10 minutes on that? If yes, answer here and I will pass you the details

JTL

NotAlone @Gurm was hinting at having some connections with Microsoft and Windows developers but I assume he got busy and that didn't go anywhere

(Sorry to put you on the spot man)

sigh

AgentX20

NotAlone Would one of you two have 10 minuts to send a message to windows staff through the Windows 10 feedback option to warn them about the problems we are suffering due their update on the graphic layer managment? With this we will have a way to gives "likes" to that question and make it more visible. Also, we will tag one Windows developer who will support us (I think). Is the better idea to get the attention of Windowdos developer it comes to my mind. COuld you spend 10 minutes on that? If yes, answer here and I will pass you the details

Hey NotAlone. To be honest - with the variable problems I've experienced (now my trusty Macbook of 6 years has 'gone bad' for me), I really don't know what's going on these days. I've found things to be too variable in the last 12 months to be able to paint a somewhat accurate picture of 'the problem' so I'm reluctant to go hassling Windows devs.

tfouto

For people who are on Windows 10 1511 build is it possible to get security updates? Or those updates are only available at lastest builds?

degen

tfouto You need Windows 10 Enterprise 2015 LTSB to get security updates (until 2025). I use it on my PC and laptops now and it has rehabilitated what I thought to be a eyestrain-inducing laptop. Windows 10 Enterprise 2015 LTSB + Intel graphics disabled (using Microsoft Basic Display Adapter) (or unless of course you have a known good Nvidia card) + Chrome HW acceleration disabled is the best combo going right now, IMO. You may need to download driver packs or use Snappy Driver Installer (look for drivers with requirement 10.0, not 10.0...xxxxx, as this denotes a high Windows 10 build requirement) to find drivers that work with this version, especially for use with a modern laptop. I was able to find a driver for Intel UHD 630 compatible with Windows 10 RTM (also works for 2015 LTSB), which I couldn't find anywhere else on the internet. Sometimes you can edit INF files for drivers to remove the requirements for the newer Windows 10 builds and they will work fine (although this won't work for Intel graphics, as they keep updating the driver to require newer versions of WDDM).

Also to get Windows Update working for 2015 LTSB you need to download manually and install the latest Servicing Stack Update and Cumulative update for 1507 LTSB.

diop

degen I'm probably going to move to 8.1 for personal use eventually as there is nothing pressing me to use W10 in a hurry. In a work situation I assume that you can't use the 2015 build and are stuck on the latest and greatest?

I tried W10 on my current good machine, and it actually loads the 2010 W7 graphics drivers for it. I still notice strain so something is going on with newer W10 builds as everybody is pointing out.

So it's a multi-layered approach to this issue. We could find ourselves a good graphics card output and driver tomorrow, but the latest OS makes it uncomfortable. Or the OS by M$ is fixed and we have a good card, but the driver forces dithering or causes issues (then again that could be mitigated by using Basic Display Adapter instead). It's still not a practical solution though as you won't be able to do anything graphics intensive.

It's so frustrating..

Markus

degen Which is the latest Laptop hardware you can you? Where to get Windows 10 Enterprise 2015 LTSB? How died you disable hardware acceleration in Chrome?

tfouto

degen How can i buy licenses for Windows 10 Entreprise 2015?

Gurm

JTL I actually chased this around, was encouraged to file a bug report/feature request. No good way to check on those though. I kind of dead-ended and then the rep I was on good terms with left, and we got downgraded to a lower tier of support. So, although I can try to check on it, I doubt we're going to get what we want from them.

But the fact that I've seen good setups recently is weirdly both encouraging AND discouraging. The fact that I can go to a convention and play XBox on a random TV with a random off-the-shelf XBox One X and have it be completely FINE... or that I can use a random machine they set up to demo Windows Hello and have it be FINE... but that I can buy an XBox One X and hook it up to a known-good TV and immediately return it because it's awful... is just weird and offputting. I really don't know what's going on any more.

KM

I think I'll totally give up on new OS. I installed Windows XP and from there connect via VNC to an up-to-date Linux machine with modern web browser. This way: no Linux eye strain, and no Win 7/10 nor any future eye strain.

diop

KM I think I'll totally give up on new OS. I installed Windows XP and from there connect via VNC to an up-to-date Linux machine with modern web browser. This way: no Linux eye strain, and no Win 7/10 nor any future eye strain.

I am going to consider the remote option at least temporarily to get some value out of my NUC. There are other mainstream apps such as TeamViewer that allow free use over LAN. I don't expect 60fps but it should be more than adequate for web and music work.

Ironically Amulet Hotkey have some good remote desktop solutions! 🙂

NotAlone

KM What about Win7? Doesn't it works for you?

AgentX20 Well, we do know some facts, as the composite layer appeared on a certain Win10 build or windows CLearType. I think it worth it, but as anyone here seems to want to do that, I will just post a link here to a microsoft forum where someone inside Microsoft explained how to do what I wanted to do (with the help of a Win10 user), where also he points to be mentioned on the feedback message to microsoft to be more helpfull. If anyone thinks it is worth to try to get better in our setups he can find the info there. From my part it doesn't matters, because I can't even use XP, but I wanted to do it for the benefit of the group. Now it's up to al of you. The link: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/visual-display-problems-after-installilng-windows/17ccdc75-93b7-46ba-9797-966c8189998d

@diop I use NoMachine, it is very good and easy to use. Android eReader as a screen to whatever you want
Guys, keep your heads up, or you will end stop trying to improve this situation

JTL

Gurm I actually chased this around, was encouraged to file a bug report/feature request. No good way to check on those though. I kind of dead-ended and then the rep I was on good terms with left, and we got downgraded to a lower tier of support. So, although I can try to check on it, I doubt we're going to get what we want from them.

Thanks for trying what you could.

AgentX20

Gurm I really don't know what's going on any more.

I know the feeling...

henno

diop

I am on a Macbook Pro 16" 2019 and I have found that when I look at someone's screen over Teamviewer, I can look at it all day without having eyes burning. Same seems to be with Windows running inside a Parallels Desktop virtual machine. The guys I'm working with are running Windows and confirm that they, too, find it easier to focus when reading code on someone else's screen over Teamviewer than on their own screen.

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