- Edited
Windows 10, not the latest but whatever my corporate IT puts there.
XZ Premium G8141
Mike - My story in short and some progress
The symptoms with the Surface Laptop are the same as with any PWM device. Red irritated eyes. No other symptoms. I do not get any headache or anything else. Just bloodshot eyes.
screenjunky Don't say that, it's enough that the eyes give the wrong information to the brain. That then gives the wrong information to the eye muscles. Due to some visual defects in combination with dithering/flicker.
But that's just a guess, I'm not a specialist.
Those who have had problems longer than a couple of months may have damaged some muscle or something.
What is so interesting is how it can be so much better for me when I covered one eye for three weeks. Has anyone else done similar tests?
When I cover one eye, I get symptoms only on the uncovered eye.
mike Those who have had problems longer than a couple of months may have damaged some muscle or something.
I have had three pretty bad years from 2013 to 2016 because I was forced to use certain hardware/software at work there was no way to get along with. 2016 to 2018, different job, were no problem, and I do work very long hours and all the time on laptop. For the past year it has been awful as never. Even before 2016 I had bad and good years, making me think my muscles are not damaged. I just need to remove the trigger to recover. It is clear that if I keep using bad hardware, because I need to work, I will not feel better anytime soon.
That said, I am very concerned about the future too, and not necessarily in terms of eyes or muscles. I guess the enormous stress I am subject to may come at a high price. But permanent damages after 2 months sound excessive, in my opinion. At least I hope.
AGI My worst years was 2014-2015, when it took about nine months to recover after I "overworked my eyes". In the beginning I could use my old computer 3x20 minutes over the day, and that was a bit painful. After 2-3 months, when it didn't get any better I started trying to sit longer and longer. I felt tension in the back of my head down my neck. For every week I made progress and the pain decreased in back of my head and neck. After about 6-7 months I could work fairly good.
I wouldn't recommend what i did, but i worked for me. And as many pointed out earlier, our problems do not have to be exactly the same.
I believe in training our eyes, and maybe the brain not to send the wrong signal to the eye muscles, or what goes wrong.
I've had this problems since about 1993. Realized that my eyes get red from flickering displays with a Sony Trinitron display I got on 1998. It has not gone worse nor better. It's like putting my hand to a hot stove, burns but heals when taken off the stove. No permanent damage. Flicker = red eyes, no flicker no red eyes. Not other eye problems whatsoever.
Maxx Wow, that's quite a while back. Could you use any CRT monitor without strain? Were CRT TV's/Games consoles comfortable for you?
Thinking back to the 90's I do remember being affected by CRT flicker, but that was because everybody left it on 60hz. So automatically every time I went into school/friends house/library it was always set to 75hz minimum.
The only other issues I remember were motion sickness on certain fps games. The original Wolf3D was a killer. Hexen/doom etc were tolerable for short periods.
Most CRT's were OK, except Trinitrons. I have no idea why Trinitrons were bad. The refresh rate didn't seem to be such an issue at all. I could tolerate 60Hz and 120Hz no problem, if it was not a Trinitron. I used during 2004 to maybe 2009 a CRT at work, as all laptop screens back then were extremely problematic, due to PWM. But I did not know it was the PWM back then.
TV's are OK, except now the new TV's. Cannot use any Samsung TV as they have 240 Hz PWM. My Sony TV is OK, as it does not have PWM. I had an OLED TV for a week, but it was unusable as it had the 240 Hz PWM.
I have zero problems with any motion sickness or anything similar. I can game FPS games the whole night if I want, if the monitor does not have PWM or dithering.
I have not really tried with my other eye covered, but I have noted that if I sit in a meeting where the display has PWM or there is a DLP projector which flickers, I avoid watching the screen as much as possible but the eye that is not "behind my nose" to the screen, i.e. the eye that gets most of the flickering light from the screen, gets irritated more.
So I do not think my situation has anything to do with eyesight or dry eyes or anything like that. It's that my nervous system is sensitive to the flicker and that causes the bloodshot eyes.
Any time I'm in a meeting at work and I have to watch a 240Hz screen for a couple of hours, my eyes get red in 15 minutes and the next morning they feel dry and a bit like I'd have some sand in my eyes.
But the interesting thing is that at work all the screens flicker and many times I notice that after a meeting many others have also red eyes. Once I even paid attention to a very tan guy, who seemed to have very white eyes in the morning he attended the meeting, but after the meeting he had bloodshot eyes like I did. I noticed this because of his tan as the white eyes kind of popped from the tan skin, then suddenly he had bloodshot eyes.
I think so many people are sensitive the the PWM, but just don't realize it. Keep applying eye drops for dry eyes. I have tried literally every eye drops there is in the pharmacy over 20 years, but they might bring just a temporary relief if the irritation is really bad, but give no relief the actual problem - drops will not prevent eyes becoming bloodshot and very irritated if I have to watch a flickering screen for a day or so.
What amazes me is that I have been to tens of eye doctors and neurologists over the years, but literally none of them recognize the problem. I have showed them articles from Notebookcheck.net about PWM and from other sites, tried to explain about the flicker. They just claim that the eye is incapable of sensing over 120 Hz.
But a funny thing one eye doctor told me - kind of got caught herself "I see a lot of even 16 year old patients nowadays with dry eye problem - previously dry eyes were only diagnosed in menopausal women. (Low estrogen causes the glands to produce less lubrication)" Well - if it is not the flicker from all the displays, why does she get 16 year olds with the "dry eye"?
It would be an accomplishment to finally get even one single eye doctor or neurologist to understand that IT IS THE DAMN FLICKER, it is not the dry eyes. Because, the people who are sensitive to PWM do not get the claimed dry eye if the screen does not flicker, period.
Maxx I'm really interested to know what happens from an R&D perspective with this new technology.
Surely all these artifacts/flickering are known to the designers of this tech because it would have been designed by them. Taking away the energy-saving argument (which is one everybody will stand for now), there is no reason nowadays why we can't have a flicker free, artifact free display. We know it can be done, it just has to be implemented.
Dont forget to try reading glasses as part of the solution. orange tinted ones working great for me
Maxx interesting I can't use tube TVs except for Sony Trinitron TVs because it uses a different method for producing the image. I play retro games on it all the time no issues. Hackaday website explains it really well and apparently they had the rights to their method for 30 years.
diop Linus tech tips made a great video I believe it's a few weeks old about what goes into making a monitor and it's super complicated. Also we are not even close in tech to be able to create a perfect screen. 1000hz refresh would solve most people's problems. Tons of information on the blur busters website about this. The guy who runs that site knows more then anybody I have ever seen when it comes to screens. I believe the fastest screen in existence he is helping oculas rift design it. He has achieved faster speeds on LED then even CRTs can achieve. Tons of incredible advice on that site. Prepare to be over whelmed.
1000Hz will not solve it. I suspect that there are many people who are sensitive to PWM, that will get the symptoms with much higher than 1000Hz too. My Sony Xperia Premium is OK, when I run an app that prevents the screen to go below 34% brightness. First couple of months I used it, it killed my eyes. Then Notebookcheck confirmed that there is a PWM of was it 2300Hz under 34% brightness. Now after using it for 2 years with the software that prevents the screen going below 34Hz, it causes no problems.
Lux
Maxx you are talking about the Flicker frequency and I am taking talking about Refresh rate. The device you have most likely only has a refresh rate of 60hz. We are heading to a future where soon most if not all devices will be flicker free. 8 phones in the last couple months have come out that use DC dimming. I think most people will find that flicker free is not going to solve all their issues as we already know. Most people on this site can't use flicker free monitors. It will take a 165hz LED or higher just to even feel like a 60hz tube TV. LED doesn't use phospor on the blue portion of its light. Way harder on our eyes. New LEDs are out now very expensive but have a phosphor on R G and B. Then there are other issues for example playing a Nintendo switch on a 60hz screen can cause all sorts of different issues. A lot of switch games are locked at 30fps and that will create double images on 60hz. On an LED screen that could be pretty harsh. Probably why people complain about different systems causing eye pain on here. What about watching movies 24fps again can create different problems for people. Even OLED can be pretty rough playing movies. That even causes strain. Faster refresh rate would help most people on here who get stuck staring at a screen all day at work. Look how excited everyone was on the one plus 7 90hz refresh rate. Scrolling through text was so much smoother and easier on the eyes. That being said I'm happy for anyone on here who can find a screen that works for them. I have learned we all see different and it will take different panels for each individual person. I found I perform best with TN gaming panels. Sony Wega tube TVs and flicker free OLED and plasma. I stick to these screens no eye pain.
jasonpicard I tend to agree. However, I use to get by fine with 120hz monitors, and now they give me trouble as well. Not sure if that's me or if new technology has made it so 120hz is no longer enough to cover up whatever else is causing irritation.
I'm going to try a gaming 240hz monitor next and see how that works.