This is my first long post on ledstrain. I live in Sweden and I don't usually write long texts in English, so bare in mind with my english.

In November I did something that made me able to use newer screens much better than before. Previously, an early-made iPhone 4S with iOS 7.1.2 was the only smartphone that worked satisfactorily + a HP notebook with win 7 and CCFL display from 2009.

Like many others here on the forum, I have problems with "newer screens". The first time I became aware of my problem was September 2011 when I bought a new Sony notebook with LED, 4 hours behind the screen gave tension headache for 8 weeks! At that time, I didn't understand what had happened, it was a bit scary. For a while I was afraid it was a brain tumor, but after a brain x-ray it was excluded.

I went to several ophthalmologists, specialists, etc. without any result. This was around 2012-2015, at that time I thought there was no difference to look at screens with one eye or both.

I notice as many others here on the forum that upgrading software, firmware, drivers etc. can mess it up. I upgraded the software on my LED TV from 2011, resulting in that I couldn't use it. Fortunately, a colleague had bought exactly the same model and not upgraded the software. So we could switch TV and it worked again. At the same time I noticed that my girlfriend's parents' LG plasma TV from 2010 with digital TV tuner didn't work, but analogue TV tuner worked on it. So every time I visited, they switched to analogue until they switched to a new TV and I couldn't watch anymore.

It's not just phones, computers and TVs that don't work. In 2014, we visited the newly renovated Madison Squre Garden to see when NY Rangers played. I couldn't finish watching the match, my eyes was hurting so much and I just wanted to blink my eyes all the time. It got better when I
left the arena, and took about 2 days to recover.

In the autumn of 2014 i overworked my eye muscles behind a screen, that took nine months to recover. In addition to tension headaches, red eyes, dizziness, I had pain in the back of my head and it extended down to my shoulders when I tried to work. This meant that I could work 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the afternoon and 20 minutes in the evening on the computer I had previously been able to work full time on. This time was tough for me, both private and job. But at the same time I became a father and got something positive I could focus on.

During 2016-2018 I noticed that some newer lights from IKEA etc. didn't work. A newly built restaurant where I live didn't work, etc. Some newer cars do not work.

In autumn 2018, Chrome was updated on my computer, 1 min on the Google Analytics site provided tension headache for 1 hour.

"The day after Black Friday 2018", I have read on the forum that it works better for @martin with one eye when he is photographing with his camera. So when the family had gone to sleep, I covered my right eye. Then I tested a newer iPhone. After 7-8 minutes of use, that iPhone would give me tension headache for several hours. With the covered eye I could manage it for a whole hour with just a little stinging feeling in the eye. I could barely sleep that night, it felt like I won a million on the lottery. A few days later I tested with the other eye and it worked just as well.

I continued to sit about 1-1.5 hours a day for about three weeks with the same iPhone and covered eye. Then I bought a pair of gaming glasses, where I was going to cover one eye. But I tested them before covering and to my surprise "it worked". Sure it stings in the eyes and they gets a little red, but I hardly get any tension headache.

So in three weeks, I have taken a giant step in the right direction. So I switch to the newer iPhone, which I can now use about 2-2.5 hours over the whole day. Sure, my eye muscles are hurting a bit and my eyes are a little red.

I get some tension headache and dizziness from other new screens, but it is much better than before. Now I can use Google Analytics in Chrome again.

In February, I visited an optician who states that "Close-up, your eyes have difficulty working together and the brain prefers to choose one or the other eye. The closer you look to different objects, the more difficult it becomes. the brain chooses to shut off one eye and then you get a distinction towards the nose. I ordered two pairs of glasses, a pair of mobile/computer terminals and a pair to "sit on the couch and watch TV". I have used the glasses on and off, but they do not seem to make any difference.

In May, I flew down to Prague and met @martin here on the forum. Firstly, Prague was nice and I can recommend it to anyone who wants to go there. But what was the most impressing was to meet Martin. A very nice and ambitious guy, who has spent a lot of time trying to solve "our problem". We met two evenings and exchanged experiences. The second night Martin had a string with a little ball. I kept the string in front of my nose and focused on the ball about 40 cm in front of me. What happens is that the string is broken at about 38 cm. My eyes focused too early, it seems to be the same problem that Martin has.

So now my goal is to find a specialist, I got the following text from @martin "they should test for vergence (convergence, divergence) excess or insufficiency and also for accommodation problems both on one eye and two eyes work. and training and know the tools such as brock string, tranaglyphs and red / green glasses, flippers and livesaver chart. "

Some other notes:

  • When I have had sinusitis, my problem has become much worse. What I have understood may be such an infection affecting the eyes. Unfortunately, I think I now have a "chronic sinusitis". Should examine it with a doctor, but I use a lot of nasal spray nowadays.
  • In 2002 I made a Lasik, was near-sighted before. First made one eye and the other eye after seven weeks. Successful results.

    I VERY STRONGLY suspect that many of us have some kind of vergence issue (convergence, divergence, accomodation, etc.) but getting it tested and treated can be time consuming.

    • AGI replied to this.

      mike

      Thanks for your experience. I too found a good optometrist, but my progress has not been as good as Martin's. I have only been doing therapy every 2-3 weeks since late January 2019.

      @martin - Is this a Brock String that Mike is talking about? When I try to focus on any bead, the X that I'm supposed to see actually comes before the bead and not at it like it's supposed to. I also have had deep suppression -- where the brain only considers the input of one eye. I'm currently using a TransLid Binocular Interactor (TBI) that flashes a light between two eyes at 9 times/sec to re-train the brain to consider both eyes.

      I've also been doing:

      • Eccentric Circles exercise
      • Accommodative Rock (plus/minus lens in one eye)
      • Binocular Rock (same as before, but with both eyes)
      • Brock String

        Gurm I have anyhow consumed so much time without finding a solution, that following a therapy would be the least of my problems. Unfortunately, those kind of specialists are not available everywhere. So far the closest I found is about 11 hours by plane in a different country. Besides the traveling expenses, I would not have medical cover, so it not doable for me right now. It is certainly in my future plans.
        It is a shame that in many advanced countries alternative treatments to standard ophthalmology are considered witchcraft.

          I'm glad you are finding success.

          However, I'm not sold on the eyes being the issue. There is no issue for people when reading from paper or many other close up things.

          The following is not meant to argue or debate your issue in any way, it's simply to advance the conversation.

          I'm convinced the light and flashing of the screens changes something in the brain, that's why the symptoms can last for months, and the symptoms start affecting people in ways that have NOTHING to do with close up vision. For example, people who have their symptoms get really bad have a hard time with any light source, even when not reading or looking at things up close. This suggests this issue goes beyond just your eye muscles.

          Like I said, I am very happy you are seeing progress and if others feel this will help them, I encourage them to look into it. But overall, the majority of symptoms people have don't line up with this being a simple eye issue. However, it is possible doing these exercises can provide some help or in some cases, drop you below the threshold of having an issue. Although when new screens are released, the problem will most likely just come back.

          One more thing, if people are having issues with this condition, I would not suggest using your phone for 2 hours at a time unless it is absolutely needed for your job or something. Just surfing and texting on the phone for 2 hours is not a very smart thing to do. Go read a book or exercise if you need to kill some time. But don't spend time in front of a screen unless you are doing something absolutely necessary.

          As I said, I'm glad you are finding success and thanks for sharing your story and findings.

            screenjunky people who have their symptoms get really bad have a hard time with any light source, even when not reading or looking at things up close. This suggests this issue goes beyond just your eye muscles.

            That is me. If I just stare at, for example, an S10 without reading or focusing I go nuts, and recover takes at least a day.
            Besides, I develop symptoms by simply sitting in an environment with "bad" lighting without doing any reading or watching.

            I find that @martin's approach is correct because we can't change the technology ourselves, and so we are left with strengthening our body to at least tolerate better. I would do the same if only I could find a specialist.

            I totally agree with you on usage. I am currently not using a phone, and I limit all the unnecessary time on electronic devices. My symptoms have recently become so bad that I worry what will happen on the long-term, given how I struggle to reach the end of the day at work.

              Maxx PWM symptoms even with restaurant flickering LED lights. I do not get any symptoms if there is no flickering light. Are you guys sure that it is not the flickering or dithering? E.g. my Surface Laptop is unusable, though it does not have any sort of PWM, but there is some temporal dithering or some other sort of flicker. Now at work my Lenovo t470 is completely fine, as it does not have PWM nor the dithering problem. Though it is still unclear to me what the difference between the Surface Laptop and Lenovo screens are.

              My point is that maybe you have not tried a display that does not have PWM nor dithering and you think your problem is in your eyes or focusing, when it is just the flickering light?

              Anyways, not so much related to this post, but I wonder why nobody is really interested in trying the DC dimming phones nor trying the Lenovo laptop that I noted to be problem free. Please do not get insulted by this, but somehow I get a vibe from this forum that people want to have this problem and have it be something more mystical than just flickering light. If you have the problem, try a flicker free device that has been confirmed to be OK by a person who has the same problem. My devices are Sony Xperia Premium (no problems whatsoever even when used for hours a day) Lenovo t470, HP ZR2740w,

              • AGI replied to this.

                  Maxx Lenovo t470

                  Which OS are you using?

                  Maxx Sony Xperia Premium

                  What is the exact model?

                  Which symptoms do you have when you used the Surface laptop? Thanks.

                      Windows 10, not the latest but whatever my corporate IT puts there.
                      XZ Premium G8141

                      The symptoms with the Surface Laptop are the same as with any PWM device. Red irritated eyes. No other symptoms. I do not get any headache or anything else. Just bloodshot eyes.

                      • AGI replied to this.

                        Maxx Just bloodshot eyes.

                        Very different from me. There is really a huge variety of symptoms. Thanks!

                          screenjunky Don't say that, it's enough that the eyes give the wrong information to the brain. That then gives the wrong information to the eye muscles. Due to some visual defects in combination with dithering/flicker.
                          But that's just a guess, I'm not a specialist.

                          Those who have had problems longer than a couple of months may have damaged some muscle or something.

                          What is so interesting is how it can be so much better for me when I covered one eye for three weeks. Has anyone else done similar tests?

                          • AGI replied to this.

                              When I cover one eye, I get symptoms only on the uncovered eye.

                              mike Those who have had problems longer than a couple of months may have damaged some muscle or something.

                              I have had three pretty bad years from 2013 to 2016 because I was forced to use certain hardware/software at work there was no way to get along with. 2016 to 2018, different job, were no problem, and I do work very long hours and all the time on laptop. For the past year it has been awful as never. Even before 2016 I had bad and good years, making me think my muscles are not damaged. I just need to remove the trigger to recover. It is clear that if I keep using bad hardware, because I need to work, I will not feel better anytime soon.
                              That said, I am very concerned about the future too, and not necessarily in terms of eyes or muscles. I guess the enormous stress I am subject to may come at a high price. But permanent damages after 2 months sound excessive, in my opinion. At least I hope.

                              • mike replied to this.

                                  AGI My worst years was 2014-2015, when it took about nine months to recover after I "overworked my eyes". In the beginning I could use my old computer 3x20 minutes over the day, and that was a bit painful. After 2-3 months, when it didn't get any better I started trying to sit longer and longer. I felt tension in the back of my head down my neck. For every week I made progress and the pain decreased in back of my head and neck. After about 6-7 months I could work fairly good.

                                  I wouldn't recommend what i did, but i worked for me. And as many pointed out earlier, our problems do not have to be exactly the same.

                                  I believe in training our eyes, and maybe the brain not to send the wrong signal to the eye muscles, or what goes wrong.

                                    I've had this problems since about 1993. Realized that my eyes get red from flickering displays with a Sony Trinitron display I got on 1998. It has not gone worse nor better. It's like putting my hand to a hot stove, burns but heals when taken off the stove. No permanent damage. Flicker = red eyes, no flicker no red eyes. Not other eye problems whatsoever.

                                      Maxx Is there any difference if you cover one eye?

                                        Maxx Wow, that's quite a while back. Could you use any CRT monitor without strain? Were CRT TV's/Games consoles comfortable for you?

                                        Thinking back to the 90's I do remember being affected by CRT flicker, but that was because everybody left it on 60hz. So automatically every time I went into school/friends house/library it was always set to 75hz minimum.

                                        The only other issues I remember were motion sickness on certain fps games. The original Wolf3D was a killer. Hexen/doom etc were tolerable for short periods.

                                          Most CRT's were OK, except Trinitrons. I have no idea why Trinitrons were bad. The refresh rate didn't seem to be such an issue at all. I could tolerate 60Hz and 120Hz no problem, if it was not a Trinitron. I used during 2004 to maybe 2009 a CRT at work, as all laptop screens back then were extremely problematic, due to PWM. But I did not know it was the PWM back then.

                                          TV's are OK, except now the new TV's. Cannot use any Samsung TV as they have 240 Hz PWM. My Sony TV is OK, as it does not have PWM. I had an OLED TV for a week, but it was unusable as it had the 240 Hz PWM.

                                          I have zero problems with any motion sickness or anything similar. I can game FPS games the whole night if I want, if the monitor does not have PWM or dithering.

                                          I have not really tried with my other eye covered, but I have noted that if I sit in a meeting where the display has PWM or there is a DLP projector which flickers, I avoid watching the screen as much as possible but the eye that is not "behind my nose" to the screen, i.e. the eye that gets most of the flickering light from the screen, gets irritated more.

                                          So I do not think my situation has anything to do with eyesight or dry eyes or anything like that. It's that my nervous system is sensitive to the flicker and that causes the bloodshot eyes.

                                          Any time I'm in a meeting at work and I have to watch a 240Hz screen for a couple of hours, my eyes get red in 15 minutes and the next morning they feel dry and a bit like I'd have some sand in my eyes.

                                          But the interesting thing is that at work all the screens flicker and many times I notice that after a meeting many others have also red eyes. Once I even paid attention to a very tan guy, who seemed to have very white eyes in the morning he attended the meeting, but after the meeting he had bloodshot eyes like I did. I noticed this because of his tan as the white eyes kind of popped from the tan skin, then suddenly he had bloodshot eyes.

                                          I think so many people are sensitive the the PWM, but just don't realize it. Keep applying eye drops for dry eyes. I have tried literally every eye drops there is in the pharmacy over 20 years, but they might bring just a temporary relief if the irritation is really bad, but give no relief the actual problem - drops will not prevent eyes becoming bloodshot and very irritated if I have to watch a flickering screen for a day or so.

                                          What amazes me is that I have been to tens of eye doctors and neurologists over the years, but literally none of them recognize the problem. I have showed them articles from Notebookcheck.net about PWM and from other sites, tried to explain about the flicker. They just claim that the eye is incapable of sensing over 120 Hz.

                                          But a funny thing one eye doctor told me - kind of got caught herself "I see a lot of even 16 year old patients nowadays with dry eye problem - previously dry eyes were only diagnosed in menopausal women. (Low estrogen causes the glands to produce less lubrication)" Well - if it is not the flicker from all the displays, why does she get 16 year olds with the "dry eye"?

                                          It would be an accomplishment to finally get even one single eye doctor or neurologist to understand that IT IS THE DAMN FLICKER, it is not the dry eyes. Because, the people who are sensitive to PWM do not get the claimed dry eye if the screen does not flicker, period.

                                            dev