Edward diop kammerer

I think finding 1000 signatories from people who are actually affected would be hard. It seems we're a very small minority. Many people seem to be affected by the odd OS, device, driver, or screen, etc. but the amount of people with overall issues is probably low.

https://ledstrain.org/d/629-how-many-users-are-here/ Slacor posted a heatmap of visitors here and the number of visitors to this forum is low. Obviously there'll be a significantly higher portion of people with this problem who've never visited this site but I imagine we're still an incredibly small minority

There are other issues too. For example nobody has a real idea of the cause of the eye strain/headaches and generally not a single one of us has identical issues ie there's always something one person can use another can not so what do we say are the problems and the cause and what we want done? "some devices hurt me but also maybe not this person who has issues with other things please fix them so they work for everybody even though none of us have any idea regarding this problem!"

There was a long thread on Intels forum for a while and after around four years they finally did some tests and then closed the thread. (closing and locking the thread was a real kick in the teeth to Intel customers IMO)

Here's what intel said

Apologies for the length in the time since our last update. In the elapsed time we've completed extensive and thorough testing of the issue you've reported to us. We sought external testing to ensure we weren't overlooking anything and to ensure unbiased results. We've worked with some of you individually, testing the actual platforms you're reporting the issue on with the specific drivers you claim are causing an issue. User Kray_62 sent us his system and we sent the unit and the drivers with & without perceived issues (version 2476 & 3347 respectively) to a 3rd party test lab [TUV Rheinland] who conducts eye comfort certification on visual displays. TUV tested various factors like luminance, color, flicker, and blue light. TUV's test results concluded no measurable difference between the drivers on neither internal nor external displays. Not to say there isn't a perceived issue, but without measurable differences between drivers, there is no objective way to resolve the issue. We have reached the end of our investigation and will be closing this issue

I get the feeling that this same thing will happen over and over again any time they do any kinds of tests unless we figure out the initial problem we all have first and that's what we need to put our heads together and some how do.

    Soreeyes

    We have issues with computer displays and or other displays and lighting. The problems are varied, and it isn't clear what issues individuals do have, what range of issues are present, how many issues each person has, and what triggers are there for these issues. It might not be possible for many to resolve their problems to a narrow diagnosis.

    So I don't think we can narrow down our diagnoses and triggers beyond likely candidates.

    So what next? Because I've been reading about this online since mid 2012. And it doesn't seem we have moved on much.

    I'm not saying this to be awkward, and I am open to all answers, even "we're screwed, deal with it".

      Edward

      The only thing we all seem to have massively in common is we all became aware this was going to be a big issue for us in 2012 (though I believe the problem started between 2 and 4 years before - it just became the norm for things around 2012) but saying "something changed in x year" is also a bad place to start

      Doing nothing and saying "we're screwed, deal with it" is a bad plan IMO. I just think we need a more concrete idea of an issue and goal regarding a fix.

      Monitors and panels would probably be an easier place to start than drivers and other hardware since it's far easier to convince people monitors are causing issues than drivers and probably easier to test/solve,

      Soreeyes I believe part of the issue might be how the graphics are rendered. Do most GPUs render a 2D desktop as a series of vectors because they are made for 3D games? I've noticed some weird flickering as things settle and artifacts like the mouse shadowing a region behind the triangle of the pointer on my e-ink screen.

      Even though its very confusing and individual problem, few things seem proven to me now:

      1. I believe everyone here has some sort of eye teaming disfunction (heterophoria is one of the terms for all these various disfunctions).
      2. New tech/rendering technology/lighting makes this issue manifest (proper term is decompensation) as opposed to the past.
      3. This can be tested as many of us still have access to old tech that doesnt cause this issue, so it is not simply that the heterophoria is happening with passing years/aging.

      If everyone here got tested by a proper optometrist and had a proof that they indeed have this eye disfunction, it would be a place to start - e.g. "New rendering technology makes previously harmless eye condition manifest in ugly ways. Condition is not always 100% treatable. Action needs to be taken by tech companies to provide options for people with this problem".

      1. If I manage to actually do the scientific testing and have slow mo video proof of clear difference between old and new tech rendering (fonts moving around, being fuzzy etc., of which PWM is already an accepted issue, dithering would be great to have a proof of as well), it could provide a good basis for a proof.

        Slacor
        Am I correct that it's near 1000 unique visitors per month according to top chart?

        martin I believe everyone here has some sort of eye teaming disfunction (heterophoria is one of the terms for all these various disfunctions).
        New tech/rendering technology/lighting makes this issue manifest (proper term is decompensation) as opposed to the past.

        I think most of all have some problem with health that are exposed through eye and head symptoms with new techs/software.
        In my own case I think that root problem for me in neck muscles block. This muscle block seems causes some problems with blood flow/blood feeding to head and eyes. According to survey half of respondents have problem with jaw that for many of them implies neck muscle problems. There is also a significant amount of time for most of respondents spending with computer that also could implies wrong posture and as result overstressed neck muscles. So main point that root cause could be in neck muscle and blood channels that restrict proper blood feeding.

        But it's not clear why this problem is exposed through new techs/software?

        [A lot of speculations further] I could suggest for unknown reason new techs/software require more blood feeding for head and eyes (maybe cause of more produced detail on screen or maybe by another color representation where dithering could be one of them, or eye muscles start to work in non-regular basis that also require some additional amount of blood). In such case there would be a competition between eyes, eyes muscles, brains for blood feedding and absence of proper amount of it could cause a problem with eyes or brains depending on what who wins in such competitions. [End of huge speculation]

          A bit off topic: please like this post (button below for registered members) if you want to participate in new Survey

          Just to add a comment on this, I had formal somatics training (Alexander Technique mainly & other related practices) the 5 last years due to a lower back problem. I believe that my neck and whole body are way more "relaxed" or better said properly toned than the average office worker that has not undergone such training.
          I do believe that this is a tech issue. There is something in the technology that creates the problem to a minority of people. I can vividly sense how most of the new displays tense up my eyes & neck and while i can partially control it and reduce the symptoms, the stimulus that is causing this is still there. It is like feeding a healthy person every day with the worst possible food and expect this person not to become sick.

          • AGI likes this.

          kammerer So main point that root cause could be in neck muscle and blood channels that restrict proper blood feeding.

          You adopt the same posture on any computer workstation so unless there's a physical reason I don't know how bloodflow could be affected by flickering.

          One thing that is clear is that we are a minority. Nobody in my immediate family has issues, nor do friends IRL or people I know via Social Media.

          However I am the only person I know of who has strabismus (heterotropia) and a significantly high prescription with prism correction (at least -8 in each eye). In my life I would say I've encountered less than 5 people with visible eye misalignment. My eye doctor has always said I am a 'unique case' - well, we all like to be unique at something 😀.

          It's not as if there are swarms of people having seizures or complaining of headaches using the latest tech, if there was a severe epidemic with users across the globe these issues would have been resolved by now.

          I am using a 2019 Dell U2419H and have been using it for 2 months now. It's absolutely fine - I can use it for hours and hours without any issues. I am using my 2010 PC, though. This monitor is PWM-free and TUV-certified for low blue light, so I still had to carefully consider my monitor choice, but it isn't out of anybody's price bracket, and I'm using it fine. I do understand there is an even smaller minority with sensitivites to LED, but CCFL-tech is still perfectly usable for the next decade or so.

          Another post has info on heterophoria, but that accounts for 10% of the population so I would have expected more people to be complaining about new technology.

          I've had an MRI in the last 5 years, it came back normal. I've had many eye checks due to other issues and the eyes are healthy, and my prescription hasn't changed since I was a teenager.

          Anyways, taking action; It's process of elimination to find the point of failure. I think Linux is a good place to start. Somebody out there has to know the kernel inside-out and will be able to explain how Linux DE's render the desktop, what type of dithering/artifacts are used, and how they can be removed. Linux is transparent, so a dithering/artifact free Linux could be a reality tomorrow, if we find the right programmer. If we then test and can all certify that we can run the 'fixed' distro on our good HW without issue, then we test on the bad HW. If the known good Linux distro on our good setup then has strain on the bad, then we're looking at a VBIOS issue or something baked into the HDMI output of new tech. Surely it's as simple as that, either the Driver/OS or VBIOS is producing this painful output. VBIOS could be the tricky issue - however if we KNOW we are running software which does not produce extra artifacts, we have eliminated any other root cause and can pressurise Nvidia et al with these findings.

            diop Somebody out there has to know the kernel inside-out and will be able to explain how Linux DE's render the desktop, what type of dithering/artifacts are used, and how they can be removed. Linux is transparent, so a dithering/artifact free Linux could be a reality tomorrow

            Well I've have a lossless capture card that I purchased earlier this year out of my own pocket because it was a limited time deal. The issue is I need to have a spare desktop to use with the "image comparator" software I've been working on to detect GPU artifacts, but sadly I don't have any spare desktops lying around.

            I've had some discussions with others on what it would take to send me a new desktop, but it hasn't worked out due to either shipping costs or "personal lives" getting in the way.

            kammerer Did you ever get tested for heterophoria? Neck and jaw pain is a result of heterophoria, not the other way around. See my new post about a new article. Eyes get tired, pain transfers through trigeminal nerve and affects everything connected. I bet if you get proper optometrist exam youll find heterophoria.

            diop 10% have it, but to what degree? The degree I have is less than 1%. Theres a spectrum of how much the eyes are deviated. So I believe we all here are a very rare extreme case of heterophoria, and also only the ones who try to find online solutions in english langauge and work with computers. Real life numbers are larger and time will show I think.

              martin 10% have it, but to what degree? The degree I have is less than 1%. Theres a spectrum of how much the eyes are deviated. So I believe we all here are a very rare extreme case of heterophoria, and also only the ones who try to find online solutions in english langauge and work with computers. Real life numbers are larger and time will show I think.

              It would make sense why such a minority are complaining about modern tech. Maybe we could post on /r/strabismus as there are about 1000 users subscribed there, we could very quickly determine if other people with strabismus are facing the same problems.

              I'm inclined to agree that this is more and more looking like a 'lack of true binocular fusion' barrier of entry > from what I've read in most cases of heterophoria fusion is still happening 99% of the time but it can be broken e.g. with the cross cover test - so essentially this tech is doing the same thing? I have strabismus (heterotropia) which effectively is worse than heterophoria as no fusion is made at any point.

              tfouto What OS do you use?

              I'm back to using Windows 7 Home Premium on my old Acer 2010 desktop. For me right now it seems any Intel integrated desktop 2010 and previous is good - obviously need to use Windows 7 and older drivers - I'm using Feb 2010 drivers!

              There must be some stereoscopic behaviour in modern devices - the question is - why?

              15 days later

              I've been posting on Reddit to seek more opinions and also to promote this forum.

              I got a reply from a post on /r/optometry, presumably from a working professional.

              I've yet to find any compelling evidence LED is any worse for people's eyes than any other light source. Just anecdotes that don't hold up to even mild testing.

              The more likely culprit is improvement in visual Fidelity with technology. Video games and movies are viewed on larger higher resolution screens, with high refresh rate. Modern video games are capable of reproducing visual cues like lighting and fog that make them more realistic and immersive than ever. Even cartoon style games are buttery smooth and immersive. Even the modern UI has elements of depth and realism to them. Smart phone screens use AMOLED displays which create more immersive and true colors, especially with darker tones in images.

              This is great and the desired effect, but for some individuals the virtual reality of the device crashes with the reality of what going on around you and suddenly your brain is processing conflicting information about it's place in the world. This is disturbing enough for some individuals to cause nausea.

              What I will agree with, and know anecdotally, is that I do get motion sickness with certain video games (but never get travel sick). For those of you old enough to remember the original Wolfenstein 3D, that game made me go crazy after 2 minutes, and that is a 30 year old DOS game. So it would be trivial nowadays for that type of effect to be baked into a UI to make it appear more 3D - maybe we're all getting 'motion-sickness lite' as a result of the new stereoscopic effects?

                diop For those of you old enough to remember the original Wolfenstein 3D, that game made me go crazy after 2 minutes, and that is a 30 year old DOS game. So it would be trivial nowadays for that type of effect to be baked into a UI to make it appear more 3D - maybe we're all getting 'motion-sickness lite' as a result of the new stereoscopic effects?

                As I remember, I got nausea like symptoms after playing Quake (II or III) game. But seems I got them after an hour of game.

                kammerer Interesting article, and still relevant.

                I never really got into FPS games after Goldeneye due to the ill-effects I had. The last time I tried a CoD game was 2008 I believe, and couldn't get past the training mission (less than 30 minutes). Fifa, Mario Kart are fine, it's just FPS games that I can't play.

                So can anybody on this forum play FPS games such as CoD for extended periods without issues?

                I would say the symptoms I get now from modern tech is either heavy eyes or similar to a very mild form of motion sickness. (Suggesting there is extra motion on the screens to process e.g. dithering).

                I use to get motion sick from most FPS games including the first DOOM, but I can play the recently released Call of Duty Mobile (MP Mode) all day long without any issues.
                In general, the narrower the tunnels in a game and the faster I move, the more motion sick I get.
                Racing games are less of a problem, I guess due to the wide area and less harsh camera movements.

                dev