Edward

The only thing we all seem to have massively in common is we all became aware this was going to be a big issue for us in 2012 (though I believe the problem started between 2 and 4 years before - it just became the norm for things around 2012) but saying "something changed in x year" is also a bad place to start

Doing nothing and saying "we're screwed, deal with it" is a bad plan IMO. I just think we need a more concrete idea of an issue and goal regarding a fix.

Monitors and panels would probably be an easier place to start than drivers and other hardware since it's far easier to convince people monitors are causing issues than drivers and probably easier to test/solve,

Soreeyes I believe part of the issue might be how the graphics are rendered. Do most GPUs render a 2D desktop as a series of vectors because they are made for 3D games? I've noticed some weird flickering as things settle and artifacts like the mouse shadowing a region behind the triangle of the pointer on my e-ink screen.

Even though its very confusing and individual problem, few things seem proven to me now:

  1. I believe everyone here has some sort of eye teaming disfunction (heterophoria is one of the terms for all these various disfunctions).
  2. New tech/rendering technology/lighting makes this issue manifest (proper term is decompensation) as opposed to the past.
  3. This can be tested as many of us still have access to old tech that doesnt cause this issue, so it is not simply that the heterophoria is happening with passing years/aging.

If everyone here got tested by a proper optometrist and had a proof that they indeed have this eye disfunction, it would be a place to start - e.g. "New rendering technology makes previously harmless eye condition manifest in ugly ways. Condition is not always 100% treatable. Action needs to be taken by tech companies to provide options for people with this problem".

  1. If I manage to actually do the scientific testing and have slow mo video proof of clear difference between old and new tech rendering (fonts moving around, being fuzzy etc., of which PWM is already an accepted issue, dithering would be great to have a proof of as well), it could provide a good basis for a proof.

    Slacor
    Am I correct that it's near 1000 unique visitors per month according to top chart?

    martin I believe everyone here has some sort of eye teaming disfunction (heterophoria is one of the terms for all these various disfunctions).
    New tech/rendering technology/lighting makes this issue manifest (proper term is decompensation) as opposed to the past.

    I think most of all have some problem with health that are exposed through eye and head symptoms with new techs/software.
    In my own case I think that root problem for me in neck muscles block. This muscle block seems causes some problems with blood flow/blood feeding to head and eyes. According to survey half of respondents have problem with jaw that for many of them implies neck muscle problems. There is also a significant amount of time for most of respondents spending with computer that also could implies wrong posture and as result overstressed neck muscles. So main point that root cause could be in neck muscle and blood channels that restrict proper blood feeding.

    But it's not clear why this problem is exposed through new techs/software?

    [A lot of speculations further] I could suggest for unknown reason new techs/software require more blood feeding for head and eyes (maybe cause of more produced detail on screen or maybe by another color representation where dithering could be one of them, or eye muscles start to work in non-regular basis that also require some additional amount of blood). In such case there would be a competition between eyes, eyes muscles, brains for blood feedding and absence of proper amount of it could cause a problem with eyes or brains depending on what who wins in such competitions. [End of huge speculation]

      A bit off topic: please like this post (button below for registered members) if you want to participate in new Survey

      Just to add a comment on this, I had formal somatics training (Alexander Technique mainly & other related practices) the 5 last years due to a lower back problem. I believe that my neck and whole body are way more "relaxed" or better said properly toned than the average office worker that has not undergone such training.
      I do believe that this is a tech issue. There is something in the technology that creates the problem to a minority of people. I can vividly sense how most of the new displays tense up my eyes & neck and while i can partially control it and reduce the symptoms, the stimulus that is causing this is still there. It is like feeding a healthy person every day with the worst possible food and expect this person not to become sick.

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      kammerer So main point that root cause could be in neck muscle and blood channels that restrict proper blood feeding.

      You adopt the same posture on any computer workstation so unless there's a physical reason I don't know how bloodflow could be affected by flickering.

      One thing that is clear is that we are a minority. Nobody in my immediate family has issues, nor do friends IRL or people I know via Social Media.

      However I am the only person I know of who has strabismus (heterotropia) and a significantly high prescription with prism correction (at least -8 in each eye). In my life I would say I've encountered less than 5 people with visible eye misalignment. My eye doctor has always said I am a 'unique case' - well, we all like to be unique at something 😀.

      It's not as if there are swarms of people having seizures or complaining of headaches using the latest tech, if there was a severe epidemic with users across the globe these issues would have been resolved by now.

      I am using a 2019 Dell U2419H and have been using it for 2 months now. It's absolutely fine - I can use it for hours and hours without any issues. I am using my 2010 PC, though. This monitor is PWM-free and TUV-certified for low blue light, so I still had to carefully consider my monitor choice, but it isn't out of anybody's price bracket, and I'm using it fine. I do understand there is an even smaller minority with sensitivites to LED, but CCFL-tech is still perfectly usable for the next decade or so.

      Another post has info on heterophoria, but that accounts for 10% of the population so I would have expected more people to be complaining about new technology.

      I've had an MRI in the last 5 years, it came back normal. I've had many eye checks due to other issues and the eyes are healthy, and my prescription hasn't changed since I was a teenager.

      Anyways, taking action; It's process of elimination to find the point of failure. I think Linux is a good place to start. Somebody out there has to know the kernel inside-out and will be able to explain how Linux DE's render the desktop, what type of dithering/artifacts are used, and how they can be removed. Linux is transparent, so a dithering/artifact free Linux could be a reality tomorrow, if we find the right programmer. If we then test and can all certify that we can run the 'fixed' distro on our good HW without issue, then we test on the bad HW. If the known good Linux distro on our good setup then has strain on the bad, then we're looking at a VBIOS issue or something baked into the HDMI output of new tech. Surely it's as simple as that, either the Driver/OS or VBIOS is producing this painful output. VBIOS could be the tricky issue - however if we KNOW we are running software which does not produce extra artifacts, we have eliminated any other root cause and can pressurise Nvidia et al with these findings.

        diop Somebody out there has to know the kernel inside-out and will be able to explain how Linux DE's render the desktop, what type of dithering/artifacts are used, and how they can be removed. Linux is transparent, so a dithering/artifact free Linux could be a reality tomorrow

        Well I've have a lossless capture card that I purchased earlier this year out of my own pocket because it was a limited time deal. The issue is I need to have a spare desktop to use with the "image comparator" software I've been working on to detect GPU artifacts, but sadly I don't have any spare desktops lying around.

        I've had some discussions with others on what it would take to send me a new desktop, but it hasn't worked out due to either shipping costs or "personal lives" getting in the way.

        kammerer Did you ever get tested for heterophoria? Neck and jaw pain is a result of heterophoria, not the other way around. See my new post about a new article. Eyes get tired, pain transfers through trigeminal nerve and affects everything connected. I bet if you get proper optometrist exam youll find heterophoria.

        diop 10% have it, but to what degree? The degree I have is less than 1%. Theres a spectrum of how much the eyes are deviated. So I believe we all here are a very rare extreme case of heterophoria, and also only the ones who try to find online solutions in english langauge and work with computers. Real life numbers are larger and time will show I think.

          martin 10% have it, but to what degree? The degree I have is less than 1%. Theres a spectrum of how much the eyes are deviated. So I believe we all here are a very rare extreme case of heterophoria, and also only the ones who try to find online solutions in english langauge and work with computers. Real life numbers are larger and time will show I think.

          It would make sense why such a minority are complaining about modern tech. Maybe we could post on /r/strabismus as there are about 1000 users subscribed there, we could very quickly determine if other people with strabismus are facing the same problems.

          I'm inclined to agree that this is more and more looking like a 'lack of true binocular fusion' barrier of entry > from what I've read in most cases of heterophoria fusion is still happening 99% of the time but it can be broken e.g. with the cross cover test - so essentially this tech is doing the same thing? I have strabismus (heterotropia) which effectively is worse than heterophoria as no fusion is made at any point.

          tfouto What OS do you use?

          I'm back to using Windows 7 Home Premium on my old Acer 2010 desktop. For me right now it seems any Intel integrated desktop 2010 and previous is good - obviously need to use Windows 7 and older drivers - I'm using Feb 2010 drivers!

          There must be some stereoscopic behaviour in modern devices - the question is - why?

          15 days later

          I've been posting on Reddit to seek more opinions and also to promote this forum.

          I got a reply from a post on /r/optometry, presumably from a working professional.

          I've yet to find any compelling evidence LED is any worse for people's eyes than any other light source. Just anecdotes that don't hold up to even mild testing.

          The more likely culprit is improvement in visual Fidelity with technology. Video games and movies are viewed on larger higher resolution screens, with high refresh rate. Modern video games are capable of reproducing visual cues like lighting and fog that make them more realistic and immersive than ever. Even cartoon style games are buttery smooth and immersive. Even the modern UI has elements of depth and realism to them. Smart phone screens use AMOLED displays which create more immersive and true colors, especially with darker tones in images.

          This is great and the desired effect, but for some individuals the virtual reality of the device crashes with the reality of what going on around you and suddenly your brain is processing conflicting information about it's place in the world. This is disturbing enough for some individuals to cause nausea.

          What I will agree with, and know anecdotally, is that I do get motion sickness with certain video games (but never get travel sick). For those of you old enough to remember the original Wolfenstein 3D, that game made me go crazy after 2 minutes, and that is a 30 year old DOS game. So it would be trivial nowadays for that type of effect to be baked into a UI to make it appear more 3D - maybe we're all getting 'motion-sickness lite' as a result of the new stereoscopic effects?

            diop For those of you old enough to remember the original Wolfenstein 3D, that game made me go crazy after 2 minutes, and that is a 30 year old DOS game. So it would be trivial nowadays for that type of effect to be baked into a UI to make it appear more 3D - maybe we're all getting 'motion-sickness lite' as a result of the new stereoscopic effects?

            As I remember, I got nausea like symptoms after playing Quake (II or III) game. But seems I got them after an hour of game.

            kammerer Interesting article, and still relevant.

            I never really got into FPS games after Goldeneye due to the ill-effects I had. The last time I tried a CoD game was 2008 I believe, and couldn't get past the training mission (less than 30 minutes). Fifa, Mario Kart are fine, it's just FPS games that I can't play.

            So can anybody on this forum play FPS games such as CoD for extended periods without issues?

            I would say the symptoms I get now from modern tech is either heavy eyes or similar to a very mild form of motion sickness. (Suggesting there is extra motion on the screens to process e.g. dithering).

            I use to get motion sick from most FPS games including the first DOOM, but I can play the recently released Call of Duty Mobile (MP Mode) all day long without any issues.
            In general, the narrower the tunnels in a game and the faster I move, the more motion sick I get.
            Racing games are less of a problem, I guess due to the wide area and less harsh camera movements.

            I have filed a bug on Ubuntu Launchpad to try and disable dithering, it's not been assigned to anybody yet but I will keep checking back for updates.

            I've also been posting on some subreddits (/r/strabismus, r/optometry) to try and get advice from others, unfortunately there has not been a big response.

            I'm not giving up, but (part rant) I'm fed up of this BS. I haven't been employed for quite some time now, why would I want to work on a computer all day if I'm 'stuck' on my good machine which is over a decade old? My lovely new NUC is sitting here which would be a real aid to my personal life (music production/graphic design) and also as a media player/games console. Even on good devices, it seems that app by app or update by update, things are breaking and becoming unusable fast.

            I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, but we can't live on years old software and hardware forever. I understand that everybody has their own lives but how do you all work right now? Don't you get really bad symptoms?

            If I went to a doctor today and said "I can't work in an office anymore because of XYZ causing me eye strain" - as it's not even a medically recognised condition, I get no support from the state (I'm based in the UK). I could get a job away from technology (a cleaner, teacher, shop assisstant) however I shouldn't have to resort to this much of a change, just because of a software update.

            I may be a part of a minority, and I'm very grateful that we can share our experiences, but these companies have so much to answer for if updates are causing individuals like myself to have these sort of reactions.

              diop The issue here is that we are a minority that has severe symptoms. I know now that more people are impacted however their symptoms are less severe so they don't look into it.

              I am discussing with legal in the company i work for of actions we could take and one of them proposed that if 500-1000 people can come together we could complain to the EU. There is a formal process for this, however all my legal contacts were not optimistic that something immediate could result given the EU's red tape, however we could give it s shot. This site could assist gathering a significant number of people residing in the EU. It would be a good practice to become noticed. If there is a person(s) in this forum with legal background he/she could assist in forming such a complaint in a more formal way.

              Regarding the option of building a legal case, all my legal contacts (UK and Greece) told me that it seems difficult due to the uniqueness of the symptoms to each person. Oled displays seem to be the worst for me, others in this forum can use them. The subject matter seems vague from a legal perspective. Then it is a matter of jurisdiction, which will be the legal framework? An EU country, UK, USA?

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