I am beginning my journey into research as we speak. I am tallying up the cost to capture temporal dithering in the act. That alone doesn't necessarily do anything, but it can be a great A/B test for some as I get to test more and more devices. For instance, I can use an older iPad Pro running version X but can't use the new iPhone 13. Does one use FRC on a lower bit panel to mimic a higher bit panel (temporal dithering)? I hope to find out.

I am still working on the test process, but I believe I have nailed down the hardware I need. This is going to be quite expensive.

I still think this petition can't hurt. If anything it can help bring more of those who face the issue to forums such as this. We might even end up getting some specialists to chime in as the population grows.

I'd still appreciate some input on the title.

    Clokwork I totally agree, and despite my problem is not connected to dithering or flicker and there's no way to capture it yet, I see any additional media resonance as a step forward. We just need not to make mistake attributing all the cases to one single problem (doesn't matter which one) and collect all the empirical evidence.
    A petition can't hurt.
    (But eyes can. Dumb marketing slogan created, lol)
    Also any systematized research similar to one Jen made can help a lot.

      • [deleted]

      • Post #31

      Can we do this petition not just to Apple but to all manufacturers? I believe many of us are having problems with a huge range of devices. The manufacturers are doing things behind their hardware and software to 'manipulate' the display signal. They succeeded in making those 'things' an inherent part of the product or technology by simply ignoring, not informing or announcing to the consumers in any way, let alone giving us an option to control / turn it off. It is sure a violation of consumer rights.

      We members of this forum can set up a petition together and spread the words to make this issue known (and sign. of course, lol). I already thought of some results that we expect and can put in the petition content.

      I'm definitely on board with broadening the scope of the petition, but I believe it needs to be somewhat specific when it comes to what is asked from. The "who" part can definitely apply to manufacturers.

      We may need to limit this to flicker. Another petition may be in order to address the other issues unless someone can concisely word this to make it clear what is being asked.

      There is definitely something going on with Mac OS software since the Big Sur update came out. I have a 2017 MBP and I’ve not had any issues related to eye strain or headaches with it the entire time I’ve had it, through many OS updates. Then last year I started having this issue. I first noticed it on Catalina with Safari 14 where I’d have trouble focusing and headache like symptoms when viewing content rendered in Safari 14 (but not 13). The rest of the apps and UI were fine. Then when I updated my machine to Big Sur the whole UI and all of the apps started bothering me in the same way. I reinstalled Catalina and kept it at Safari 13 and it’s back to being totally fine. I notice that almost all of the Macs I the Apple store now have this effect on me. I’ve tried all of the M1 machines. They all of course run Big Sur as the minimum OS, so I can’t try Catalina on them to see if it would fix the issue.

      Anyways I’d support such a petition. I filed a feedback with Apple as both a user and a developer. My hope is they can create an accessibility mode to help with this.

      I am also sensitive to PWM on oled iPhones, but this effect on Macs is different. I have a history of migraines and I have a slight problem with convergence in my right eye which is transient, but it hasn’t ever caused me issues with screens and I’ve been using one type of screen or another since the 1980s.

        asus389 I have a feeling we are extremely similar in terms of experiences with some variations. I do have an OLED iPhone X with no issues. I refuse to update to iOS 15. (I'm on 14.7.1) I did so with my old 10.5 iPad Pro and now I can't use it anymore. Every time I've been in the Apple store in the last couple of years roughly (I stopped going), I couldn't look at any of their iPads, MacBooks, or iPhones for long as I felt very off.

        I have a 2017 15" MacBook Pro. All seemed ok for me until I updated to Monterey. I thought it was my anxiety, but sure enough, things seemed "off". I am able to use it, but it isn't my favorite screen. I had to check again, but regarding my iPad, ipadOS 14.7 was my last eye/brain stable operating system.

        Tin foil hat time. I think that if they didn't add temporal dithering all at once, they have been slowly dosing us with it over updates. I hope to quantify this once I get all of the tools I need.

        • bkdo replied to this.

            The titles are limited to 90 words. So far this is what I have

            Please don't use Temporal Dithering. The visual & cognitive effects are harmful & lasting

            The second page gives the opportunity to name companies.

            I welcome your input!

              Clokwork I'd do something like: Please stop using PWM, temporal dithering, and all other sources of flicker.

                  Clokwork

                  I've had the exact same experience with iOS as you have. I updated one of my iPads from 14.6 to 14.8, and then immediately started noticing the usual symptoms (Gritty eyes, eye strain, headaches, etc). I wasn't sure if it was just a fluke, so I updated an older eyestrain-free iPhone as well - I instantly noticed the same thing.

                  I definitely agree with your theory that it's been a slow adoption of dithering (Or whatever they've added). I first noticed that any device with the A12 chip (LCD or not) caused eye strain, and now it seems anything over 14.8/15.0 has the same flicker. I was hoping that as screens got better and better, they wouldn't need to use these display tricks to emulate colors, but that's clearly not happening 😐️

                  I'm holding onto my 8+ on 14.6 and iPad 7th Gen on 14.4 for dear life, lol.

                      bkdo I highly suggest submitting this feedback to Apple, especially accessibility AT apple.com.

                      • bkdo replied to this.

                          ryans

                          I just got off the phone with an accessibility rep, I explained the situation and am getting my notes forwarded to the engineering team. No idea if it'll lead anywhere, but it's something. I've called before + submitted feedback online and nothing happened, but we'll see. I was told that I'll get a response within a week or two, and they may reach out directly if they need more info.

                          Maybe it's a good idea for each of us to call and share our experiences? I'd hope that if a lot of us call, they'd acknowledge it as an issue worth addressing.

                              ryans Thanks for the feedback! the "and all other sources of flicker" part may be too open ended. I believe if we do our best to specify, it can make more of an impact.

                                bkdo I'm with you on keeping current operating systems where they are! I am going to try and buy a refurbished iPad Pro 10.5 from the Apple store and cross my fingers it is on older software since they don't usually update them during the refurbishment process (so they say). If it's on current software, I will return it.

                                I would like to hope that in the near future, apple and other premium brands switch to true 10 bit panels and leave the colors as is, and to avoid FRC. Leave it to to some ofthese companies to then want to display 12 bit colors on that 10 bit panel /s :

                                On another note, I realized my old LG 4k TV was not all that easy to watch. I used it very causally for working out. Basically listening to the music videos playing on it. I am now using it for watching and noticed the color profile was on "extended". I changed it to normal and boom, easier to watch. Tin foil hat again, but it surely has to be an 8 bit panel trying to be something its not.

                                  I'd also recommend, Apple to test their devices on people with:

                                  • Binocular Vision Dysfunction
                                  • Epilepsy
                                  • Migraines

                                  Like I said, they already do this for blind people (who use VoiceOver).

                                  FWIW at some point, I think they will run out of colors the human eye can perceive and the hardware will catch up such that dithering isn't necessary.

                                    ryans I believe this will happen with true 10 bit displays. Unless they then need billions of more colors /s

                                    I'm eyeing the Dell UP3221Q whenever I can afford it. I won't be gaming on it due to the response time, but I'm curious if a true 10 bit display will halt the tricks.

                                    Hopefully all of these dimming zones they are adding don't add to the strobe effect. I find that most TVs that I can use have edge backlighting. I don't care about deep blacks, but hey… marketing.

                                      5 days later

                                      I tried 2 10-bit displays, but those did not resolve the problem. My problem is PWM and possibly temporal dithering.

                                      I really like the petition idea and contacting Apple. We need to get some momentum ro this, since there just does not seem to be any displays anymore without some sort of flicker. My current devices are old, but do not irritate.

                                      But let's not spoil this yet again by having a million sources of discomfort. PWM and Possibly Temporal Dithering seem to be quite common. But since we are not sure if it is temporal dithering, I might also be good to add a question to the petition. "if you dont think it is temporal dithering, what was changed in the display tech some 7 years ago what might be causing thousands of people eye irritation?" But let's not have "I'm ok with PWM but grey color hurts my eyes on a Tuesday morning" Binocular vision dysfunction is also something that none of the even PhD eye doctors came to think of, so might be wise to leave that out too, since then it becomes a problem for "sick people" only, and since we did not experience any problems with our eyes before they made the change some years ago, our eyes are not sick. The technology has a problem.

                                        Maxx The 10-bit displays you tried were true 10-bit? If they were, there is technically no need for temporal dithering. I am guessing at that point, it could be the PWM or another source for your discomfort.

                                        • Maxx replied to this.
                                            dev