I had forgotten that roughly 3-4 years ago, I bought a high speed panel meant for gaming that was a TN panel. At the time I didn't know that to obtain those speeds and to lighten the load, these were 6 bit panels that may have likely been using FRC to show 8 bit colors. I had to return that panel. This was my first encounter with display issues.

I bring this up to try and connect the dots for some of us as I realize our problems are diverse. My logic is:

  • TN 6 bit panel likely using FRC to show 8 bit color = Discomfort for me
  • Fast forward to HDR, 8 bit panels using 10 bit color = Discomfort for me

If my issues with Apple are related, I may have a true pattern here.

If anyone else is in a similar boat, I'd love to hear from you.

Something to be aware, almost all TN panels are 6bit with dithering to bring them up to 8bit, its not limited to gaming panels.

    Seagull Are they?
    I do not know much about dithering, but it seems (subjectively) that dithering complaints increased with time, but TN usage decreased with time.

      Seagull Gotcha. This was my first known TN panel. Previously, I had VA and IPS.

      Mrak0020 I consider that going from 6-8 bit using dithering, you have

      16,777,216 - 262,144 = 16,515,072 colors to simulate.

      But with 8-10 bit, you have

      1,073,741,824 - 16,777,216 = 1,056,964,608 colors to simulate.

      That said, my hypothesis: In order to simulate that many more colors for 8 bit panels, it could be much more noticable and bothersome if someone were sensitive to it. (possibly a lot more happening on the display at one time)

        Clokwork That could be the case; as you know, I can't contribute as it seems dithering is not my problem, but right now I am using very old TN notebook, so presumably I could test something if needed. It has ATI video card, and Windows 10 64x.
        I also wonder, how exactly dithering works? It should emulate only additional colors, but not the basic ones, I suppose? Maybe some colors can be rendered without dithering?
        Maybe an image can be limited to some subset of colors for a test.

          Mrak0020 That's exactly my hypothesis. It makes sense in my brain at least 😄

          Correction: checkerboard dithering or temporal dithering could be used.

          Clokwork

          The wider the color gamut, the worse the flicker will be from FRC. I had a 6 bit + frc wide color gamut monitor, it was horrible, and the FRC color flicker was very noticeable with certain colors.

          6 Bit = only 64 shades per color, sadly most monitors only 6 bit, which might be okay for regular sRGB color, but its very noticeable with more vivid colors.

            Clokwork

            https://youtu.be/a8hfUlPvta0?t=348

            This explains it nicely. sRGB is the first one where you have more colors bleeding into each color (red has some green + blue in it for example), while wide gamut monitors have only a narrow peak of each three color. The only problem is when you want to mix these together to show a specific color, the jump will be much bigger because there is less "random" color is bleeding into each RGB subpixel. Thats why wide color gamut needs more then 6 bit.

            Wide color gamut is anything that is higher than 100% sRGB, many wide color gamut monitors are like 120% sRGB.

              Random Wide color gamut is anything that is higher than 100% sRGB, many wide color gamut monitors are like 120% sRGB

              Note that Mac supposedly using dithering to approximate the P3 color gamut (which is wider than the sRGB one).

              Take note of this interesting Reddit post where changing the color profile to sRGB on Mac may eliminate the dithering -- but eliminated the eye strain!.

              Worth a try if you have a Mac - switch to sRGB. I connected with someone who found relief also on an external monitor by switching to sRGB. This is closest thing I've found to disable dithering on Mac.

              See another post here about changing to sRGB fixing the issue.

                Random Great post. ryans It's a huge coincidence that I was just looking into changing my color profile on my 2017 mbp. It's not terribly offensive on my eyes, but it's not something I'd want to look at for hours at a t time. I notice it's currently on "Color LCD". I can't find info on that color profile. There are a couple of RGB profiles in my list:

                • Adobe RGB (1998)
                • sRGB IEC61966-2.1

                  Clokwork I've heard success with both of those RGB profiles...worth trying both IMHO.

                  I tried all the color profiles on my 2015 13 MBP and it made no difference, tried different operating systems as well and no difference. Not sure what panel it had but I sold it as after nearly 2 years it was unusable.

                  Anyway as we're all different I throw my 2c in, I have 6+2bit LG IPS and its fine to use as is a 8bit Benq TN on my good hardware, can and do use them all day. Bad hardware makes them both unusable to me though. But also so do two games I've tried recently, they will cause me a migraine on otherwise perfectly usable hardware for everything else.

                  Even on laptops that are good for me on W10 I've installed a different OS (ubuntu 18 / 20 etc) and these are bad. Same screen same everything just different OS will cause them to give me a migraine. I could see the purple ubuntu screen shimmering when I last tried it and then minutes in a web browser (firefox) and the damage was done. Migraine.

                  Also recently I've got a large iiyama IPS and I cant use it, its flicker free but I think its also 6+2 bit but it gives me a migraine.

                  Seems to be some things are good and some bad, but bad hardware will make a good screen bad, but a bad screen may always be bad.

                  I've read that Linux likes to use a use low PWM setting by default if you have issues with that.

                  Since MacOS seems to be all in on HDR now, are there any true 10 bit panels that will natively show Wide Color with no dithering? Does the Pro Display XDR have FRC? It’s certainly expensive, but I’d be curious…

                  edit: according to this site it doesn’t use FRC.

                  https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/e19919f7

                  Anyone want to drop $6k to find out if it solves the problem? 😂

                  Edit: sorry, $5k, but you probably want a stand too… 🤷‍♂️

                    asus389 I'm still skeptical. For that price, they are above the range of 2 true 10 bit displays that I have seen (Dell and Asus), but I'm wondering why Apple would say "Color: P3 wide color gamut, 10-bit depth for 1.073 billion colors".

                    Asus says:

                    • True 10 bit color with Quantum-dot technology provides 89% Rec. 2020, 99.5% Adobe RGB, 99% DCI-P3 and 100% sRGB color space for exceptional color fidelity
                    • Dell says (even more clearly):

                    Extraordinary color depth: Enjoy a tremendous level of detail that only a true 10 bit panel and the depth of 1.07 billion colors can provide. Even in dark areas, you’ll see better color gradation and precision in more shades.

                    24 days later

                    The M1 iMac also supports P3 Color Gamut. Anyone have better luck with it?

                    DCI-P3 has a color gamut at least 25% wider than sRGB. I am absolutely certain the Macs are 8 bit panels. You just can't natively show these colors.

                    dev