Edit by degen: This series of posts were split from a different thread so that it can remain on-topic and so we can discuss these ideas here more clearly. I have created the thread title.

DLP projectors flicker just like PWM. Also, most LCD projectors have temporal dithering (or what ever it is that gives eye strain on top of PWM in all modern displays) I tried 4 LCD projectors from Epson and Sony a year ago, exactly the same eye strain as with modern displays.

10 years ago I had an Epsom LCD projector as TV and that did not produce any eye strain, similarly as none PWM free LCD displays did at the time. Then they changed something in all LCD tech, most likely introduced temporal dithering, which produces similar eye strain as PWM

Motorola g100 is totally problem free at +65 brightness when there is no PWM.

I find it slightly disappointing that we discuss mental health and depression medication in association to the eye strain that modern displays give us. I've never had any mental health issues nor needed any medication, but I've had this problem always. I first started getting bloodshot eyes 30 years ago with a sony trinitron TV. when I switched to a non trinitron TV, my red eyes problem stopped immediately.

Though, alcohol does make my eyes excessively red, so much so that even if I drink a few beers, people start asking what is wrong with my eyes and this has been the case for 30 years also, since I had my first few beers.

The Binocular Vision Dysfunction seems plausible and maybe alcohol messes up with the BVD even in small quantities, so the eyes get similarly strained as with looking at a flickering display.

    Maxx Oh, forgot to mention why I find the mental health topic disappointing: I can not ever be persuaded to think that this has anything to do with mental health or that this would be in any way psychosomatic. So to get attention to this, we would need to point this forum to manufacturers etc. and they will just see "bunch of outliers discussing about mental health, so they just likely are crazy and just get problems with anything under the sun"

    This is not to discredit the problems that anyone in this forum is trying to solve with medication. Just to say that badly built displays that flicker and irritate eyes have nothing to do with mental health and we should try to keep the discussion to the badly built displays and resolve mental health issues elsewhere.

        Maxx Looking at a display should be like reading a book in daylight. That's how my Motorola g100 and my HP ZR2740w displays are. And I can also connect my Yoga X1 to that HP and it gives me no issues, so at least in the case of the HP display, the temporal dithering that the intel display adapter produces, is not manifested in the HP display

          Maxx Wait, mental health correlates with some drugs usage, and drugs can affect how your neural system works (and more systems within your body). In some cases that can be a trigger, in others that could be a way to calm neural pathways that were affected (by technology). No one states that is a solution but mentioning drugs as a potential trigger definitely should be here on the forum.

            Maxx Also your case is not everyone else's case. There was a person with only one eye here, so most definitely BVD is not his issue. Neither it is mine.
            Mentioning things that can increase this reaction for a previously unaffected person helps to collect data.

              If a person is able to read a book in daylight without discomfort then there should be a display that would not cause discomfort either, as was common before temporal dithering and PWM.

              I'm not all that convinced about the BVD as such and like you said, then a person with one eye would not be affected.

              But if you see my point - if drugs trigger problems with a book in daylight, then yes. But I doubt it is the case. The problem is that they changed somethlng in the display tech some 7 years ago and no drugs triggered any problmes and it is not related to mental health at all. Bad display tech is not related to mental health.

                Maxx Drugs can change the responses of the neural system, thus making it more perceptible to this change in technology. Specifically stating technology, not a book under daylight. 'Cause screens need way more from eyes and brain than a book.
                They changed something, but not a single thing, it was a plethora.

                Maxx Bad display tech is not related to mental health.

                You can save that statement for discussion with manufacturers. Here no one stated it to disprove it.

                This forum is not enough anyway to show to manufacturers, no matter how much drugs are discussed.
                They will need some sort of organized material with all the evidence.
                If they do not want to deep-dive into what is going on and will try to tie everything to mental health, there would be little else to do other than push to them a clear list of evidence.

                I noted that there is some weird western tendency to tie everything that is possible to mental health.

                • Maxx replied to this.

                      There isn't a drug we can stop or start to get rid of this problem. The only way to get rid of this problem is to find out what was the change they made in the panel tech some 7 years ago and circumvent that. = Make truly flicker free displays.

                      They think that PWM at 2.5Khz or more is problem free - it absolutely is not. When I use my Motorola G100 and set the brightness from 65% to 64%, my eyes get bloodshot within 30 minutes and the PMW is around 2.5Khz. Otherwise I can use the phone for reading books or playing games or what ever trough the night and day if I want, without getting any problems.

                      I never used a drug, so there is nothing to quit or any drug that would have caused my sensitivity to flicker, as I have had this most likely always, but like I said, the first time I noticed it was the Sony Trinitron TV. Normal CRT TV's were fine.

                      Also it does not make any sense to start taking some drug for the rest of our lives to bear bad display technology. We NEED to find out the source. PWM is very clear source for most, but unfortunately for many others like myself, it is the suspected temporal dithering.

                      My current belief is that they made some pretty universal change in LCD technology. Why I think so?

                      Because when I connect any offending laptop to my HPZR2740 display, it produces no eye strain like my desktop with Geforce 970 does not.

                      Because LCD projectors were fine 10 years ago, as they obviously do not have PWM and did not have temporal dithering back then. Now also LCD projectors have the same suspected Temporal dithering and it does not matter if I connect the projector to my GeForce 970, it still causes same eye strain as any modern laptop.

                      Because Surface Pro 2 had a bad color quality display and did not produce any eye strain when 100% brightness when there was no PWM, (Same with Pro 3, but I never owned it or tested it long enough to be absolutely sure). Pro 4 onwards the colors were great and so was the eye strain.

                      Because I have tested countles phones and laptops with Oscilloscope confirmed no PWM displays, but they still produce the same eye strain, but do not when connected to my HP display.

                      So while I do understand that my case does not represent everybody else's case, this is what is seen in many other forums, so I will make the assumption that the most COMMON scenario is eye strain due to flicker. PWM is flicker, Temporal dithering is flicker.

                        Mrak0020 No, you see, this is where I disagree. Display should not require anything more than a book and I have had several and have several displays that do not require anything more than a book in daylight. Those displays do not cause any sort of discomfort what so ever, they are like a book to my eyes.

                        But then there are displays that get my eyes bloodshot in 30 minutes, or like OLED's, 15 minutes.

                        • Maxx replied to this.

                            Maxx And the issue I have is that we have always someone come up the the forum with some issues like mental health or some allegies or what not, when we should focus on "what change was made to displays that made them irritating and how can we change them back so that they do not irritate anymore" Not discuss some other problems that are not related. Do not get me wrong, I'm not trying to antagonize here, it is just that I have had this problem for 30 years and for the past 15 that there has been discussions in the internet about this, it 90 % of the time ends up being flicker sensitivity. Many people try to resist the idea even for years, they try herbs, diets, glasses, whatnot, but in the end they realize that it is flicker that causes the irritation.

                                Maxx In my case that is not a flicker of any kind. Still a mystery.
                                This is why we need all the possible data. There is no one single change, no one single underlying trigger but a set of them.

                                The display should not, here I agree with you completely, but it does. And majority do not react, so they either are not getting triggered or are able to compensate for it. Now when a person takes drugs that heavily affect the neural system and moves from unharmed category to reacting category, it may help to find out what is going on, what is affected. At least for some cases. It doesn't mean that it should be fixed by drugs. Or that something is wrong with our neural system.
                                For a simple example, my eyes have wider pupils than an average person. It is not a pathology, not an unhealthy state, simply less common. Now some drugs can also lead to this state. It is totally unconnected to the screen issue, I am just showing that a change in some parameter could be useful information.

                                • Maxx replied to this.

                                    Mrak0020 May I ask, what symptoms do you get from displays and how have you confirmed that it is not flicker?

                                      Maxx You have access to English internet (for some reason it is so tiny when it comes to screen troubles) and I speak Russian, where people started to ask what is going on maybe in 2002 and since then there was a long discussion with more triggers that flicker. But they missed many findings about flicker (or were able to fix flicker issues faster and do not focus on them). So these discussions on two languages I am reading complement each other.

                                      Sure, I am unable to use any smartphone that was manufactured since 2017 that I tried (I tried maybe 50). I have no problems with other tech, including MacBooks. I haven't tried laptops and monitors that were manufactured in last couple of years, as I suspect I will find the same technological advancement there.
                                      No problems with older Oled, no PWM sensitivity, etc. Done plenty of tests.
                                      My symptoms include light sensitivity, red eyes, immediate problems with convergence (but it is otherwise totally fine).

                                      • Maxx replied to this.

                                          Mrak0020 Ok, thanks. Well, until you have tried Motorola G100, I think you cannot be sure. It is really like reading a book in daylight. Same with Lenovo x280 FHD and this HP monitor. I'd say 99% of the phones that are manufactured since last 5 years either have PWM or Temporal Dithering type of flicker. So if you have not tried the device that does not give problems to a person who also gets red eyes, then I think you cannot be sure.

                                          What displays you are able to use now, that do not give problems? MacBook, but which model? Year?

                                              Maxx MBP 2017, MBP 2018. I had some external monitors plugged in, no problems. Other tech in office, no problems.
                                              Now I am using a very old HP just because I like it.

                                                Maxx Thank you for suggestions.
                                                PWM does not bother me at all, my last safe phone had 240 Hz PWM. I tried to change PWM to see if I will react, no difference in symptoms. I tried to look through different barriers, including a few centimeters of oil and a big bunch of screen protectors. No temporal dithering should be able to get through, I do not see pixels through it. But I still feel that pressure. And I see something like a white veil above the screen. Like I have to focus through light. No other screens give me this feeling.

                                                  Well, you do not see 2.5Khz PWM either. And you can have Temporal Dithering with PWM, but this you knew.

                                                  I continue to wonder why people resist trying devices that a person who has had this problem for 30 years, says are problem free. Now I don't try some old HP OMEN because a couple of persons claim it is OK - it is impossible to source anymore. Motorola G100 should be easy to order online and is not that costly. Should be available in Russia, too

                                                  Maxx Motorola G100 should be available, I will check it, thank you! I suspect I have already seen it, but it is better to double-check.
                                                  I am in Ukraine 🙂

                                                  • Maxx replied to this.

                                                      But be sure to use it above 65% brigthness. If you feel it is too brigth, try it with blue blockers or sunglasses even. (and better yet, check with a DSLR that the PWM really goes away at 65% like I have checked. Seems that it is possible that they have different panels and your device might not have the same as I have. But I doubt that it is the case, as it is not that high volume device

                                                        Maxx OLED saver should easily fix that. It imitates DC dimming.

                                                          dev