Maxx And the issue I have is that we have always someone come up the the forum with some issues like mental health or some allegies or what not, when we should focus on "what change was made to displays that made them irritating and how can we change them back so that they do not irritate anymore" Not discuss some other problems that are not related. Do not get me wrong, I'm not trying to antagonize here, it is just that I have had this problem for 30 years and for the past 15 that there has been discussions in the internet about this, it 90 % of the time ends up being flicker sensitivity. Many people try to resist the idea even for years, they try herbs, diets, glasses, whatnot, but in the end they realize that it is flicker that causes the irritation.
Mental health, medication, and eyestrain
Maxx In my case that is not a flicker of any kind. Still a mystery.
This is why we need all the possible data. There is no one single change, no one single underlying trigger but a set of them.
The display should not, here I agree with you completely, but it does. And majority do not react, so they either are not getting triggered or are able to compensate for it. Now when a person takes drugs that heavily affect the neural system and moves from unharmed category to reacting category, it may help to find out what is going on, what is affected. At least for some cases. It doesn't mean that it should be fixed by drugs. Or that something is wrong with our neural system.
For a simple example, my eyes have wider pupils than an average person. It is not a pathology, not an unhealthy state, simply less common. Now some drugs can also lead to this state. It is totally unconnected to the screen issue, I am just showing that a change in some parameter could be useful information.
Maxx You have access to English internet (for some reason it is so tiny when it comes to screen troubles) and I speak Russian, where people started to ask what is going on maybe in 2002 and since then there was a long discussion with more triggers that flicker. But they missed many findings about flicker (or were able to fix flicker issues faster and do not focus on them). So these discussions on two languages I am reading complement each other.
Sure, I am unable to use any smartphone that was manufactured since 2017 that I tried (I tried maybe 50). I have no problems with other tech, including MacBooks. I haven't tried laptops and monitors that were manufactured in last couple of years, as I suspect I will find the same technological advancement there.
No problems with older Oled, no PWM sensitivity, etc. Done plenty of tests.
My symptoms include light sensitivity, red eyes, immediate problems with convergence (but it is otherwise totally fine).
Mrak0020 Ok, thanks. Well, until you have tried Motorola G100, I think you cannot be sure. It is really like reading a book in daylight. Same with Lenovo x280 FHD and this HP monitor. I'd say 99% of the phones that are manufactured since last 5 years either have PWM or Temporal Dithering type of flicker. So if you have not tried the device that does not give problems to a person who also gets red eyes, then I think you cannot be sure.
What displays you are able to use now, that do not give problems? MacBook, but which model? Year?
Maxx Thank you for suggestions.
PWM does not bother me at all, my last safe phone had 240 Hz PWM. I tried to change PWM to see if I will react, no difference in symptoms. I tried to look through different barriers, including a few centimeters of oil and a big bunch of screen protectors. No temporal dithering should be able to get through, I do not see pixels through it. But I still feel that pressure. And I see something like a white veil above the screen. Like I have to focus through light. No other screens give me this feeling.
Well, you do not see 2.5Khz PWM either. And you can have Temporal Dithering with PWM, but this you knew.
I continue to wonder why people resist trying devices that a person who has had this problem for 30 years, says are problem free. Now I don't try some old HP OMEN because a couple of persons claim it is OK - it is impossible to source anymore. Motorola G100 should be easy to order online and is not that costly. Should be available in Russia, too
But be sure to use it above 65% brigthness. If you feel it is too brigth, try it with blue blockers or sunglasses even. (and better yet, check with a DSLR that the PWM really goes away at 65% like I have checked. Seems that it is possible that they have different panels and your device might not have the same as I have. But I doubt that it is the case, as it is not that high volume device
Because, if we could find even say 10 people who have problems with most other devices, but do not have problems with the Motorola G100 (G5 plus was the previous model with similar display with same: it did not cause any problems above 65) We could try to contact motorola and say "Hey we are a group a people who cannot use any other smartphone, but for some reason G100 is problem free - could you please try to examine what is technologically different in that particular phone and preferable keep manufacturing a phone with the same display tech).
The same was with old Sony Xperia XZ premium and some older sonys, when brighness was above the PWM treshold, I got no eye strain.
I visited Kiev once in Business.Maxx There is still a factor of different displays within the same phone model, it haunts not only high volume devices. Especially smaller Chinese brands can have a plethora of different screens inside. It makes reading reviews way harder. Funny enough, those smaller brands have a higher chance of having a non-problematic screen and bigger brands who care much more about quality have those terrible screens.
Fully agree, but as you did, discussions related to mental health of drugs would need to be in a separate thread discussing those topics. Like I said, bad display tech has nothing to do with mental health or drugs. A book read in daylight does not suddenly become irritating because of stopping a drug or starting a drug. (Or of course in some scenarios this can happen, but we all know it is not the book or daylights fault and the book and daylight cannot be fixed)
The problem is that I have e.g. referred this page to eye doctors and some review sites. When those people come here and see a myriad of weird complaints and discussion about stopping or starting a drug-related to mental health, they will quickly draw assumptions that this is just a problem with some people who have a lot of other issues, too.
Wouldn't it be nice if there would be some sort of conclusive discussion for at least a certain majority of people "PWM and temporal dithering produces symptoms and devices ZYX are the ones we can use, so clearly there is a problem with the new tech that is being employed in the modern devices"
I do appriciate the cohesive investigations and the level of knowledge that e.g. Mrak0020 has, but wouldn't we all agree that it is a bit strange for people outside of this problem to understand that all phones before 2017 be it LCD with PWM or OLED with PWM or Temporal dithering were totally fine, but no phones after that are OK, but still Macbooks and any other display with PWM or display is OK. From an outside perspective that has no logic. Because Apple forums are full of people who have a problem with the Mack book temporal dithering from several years back and those same people most of the time also have a problem with PWM and other flickering devices.
For me it is totally clear - any flicker causes eyestrain. I do not get any other symptoms but red eyes, no headache not anything else.
Maxx For that purpose, there is a website created by Jen, you may find it useful https://www.flickersense.org/
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I am of the belief that it is the other way around, that this change to technology is the cause (or certainly a major contributor) to mental health issues.
Let's be frank; we're all here because we have trouble using modern technology. In today's world, that is going to have a significant impact on your social/professional life.
I haven't posted in a while, but I found patents online (and shared them here) documenting temporal dithering algorithms. It states that temporal dithering can cause a ~15hz flicker on a display. If I had to stare at a display using a 15hz refresh rate it would be horrific.
The way temporal dithering works, the way pixel intensities are constantly changing from low-high, is analogous to flicker in my opinion.
This isn't just new hardware either. I am finding more and more that the latest versions of apps are causing issues. I can't find a usable video player anymore. Web browsers are causing more strain; even a clean install of a previously good OS (e.g. Windows 8/8.1) is causing issues with the latest updates. Windows 10 on my known good system using the original W7 drivers still causes issues.
Somebody more techie on this forum, please consider looking into PCoIP to identify changes in pixel behaviour across good/bad VMWare hosts.