Temporal Dithering Sensitivity - My Solution

Hhighradio · Dec 2, 2020

si_edgey Hey! Seems you did not understand my solution completely. I did not have to try multiple G-Sync laptops.

Since disabling Intel HD Graphics on the problematic laptop solved my eye-strain problem completely and I was able to look at the screen for hours without any issues, that was conclusive proof that Intel HD Graphics was the root of all evil, right? So what I needed was a laptop that DID NOT have Intel HD Graphics in it - completely removed or disabled out of the box by the manufacturer. Now, how did I find such a laptop? With months of scouring dozens of forums, I learned that laptops the have TWO Nvidia cards OR Laptops that Support G-Sync have the Intel HD graphics culled by the manufacturer else G-Sync won't work. Culled as in you'll never have to install Intel HD drivers and the manufacturer's drivers download page will not offer Intel HD drivers for download.

Users complaining about problems with Nvidia card are perhaps mistakenly concluding so. What happens with most of the non-gaming, non-Gsync supported, general use laptops is that the display is connected to Intel HD Graphics which is in turn connected to an Nvidia card acting as an auxiliary. In such cases, the Intel HD card does most of the lightweight graphics processing, and the NVidia card kicks in only when there's a demand for heavy-duty processing. It does the processing and passes it on the Intel HD card which renders it on the display while adding to it all that causes eye-strain and headaches. So it's quite obvious that the uniformed user might think Nvidia card also causes eye-strain. I've been on the Nvidia forums for months reading every single post and comment, and I didn't find anyone complaining of eye-strain with Nvidia specifically. All the complaints were coming from people who also had Intel HD card in their laptops alongside the Nvidia card. Nvidia is on top of their game. They release driver updates twice every month, and sometimes thrice or more often. Above all, Nvidia listens to users and so any eye-strain issue will have been dealt with before becoming as widespread as the current one which has made all of us on this forum suffer.

The problem free, G-Sync laptop I am using currently is the 17 inch Acer Predator G9-793. I bought it years ago and it has never given me the slightest viewing problems ever. I'm on it all day - for work, for gaming, watching movies, and everything else you can imagine. I have Acer's proprietary Bulelight Shield enabled on it all the time. it came with windows 10 Pro, so been using that ever since with automatic updates. Also the Nvidia drives update automatically and regularly. Never had any issues.

If you're skeptical, just pin point a G-Sync laptop online and then walk into a store selling it and ask for a demo. Take you problematic laptop with you and compare them side by side. Always check notebookchec.net for a review of your laptop and see if the display uses PWM. Mine does not (PWM not detected!), and that's what you want to have in your new laptop.

I still remember those helpless days when Intel HD made me suffer. I lost so much with my work and I had to start wearing glasses which I'll probably have to carry lifelong now. I consciously search Google for "laptop eye-strain" from time to time and always take the time to post my experience and solution so that no one else has to suffer as much and start wearing glasses. I feel it. It's worth investing in a good G-Sync laptop than buying a regular Intel HD laptop and having your eyesight damaged. If I ever meet the creator of that particular Intel HD card in person..... you guess what..

Hhighradio · Dec 2, 2020

Quad43 Most gaming laptops do support G-Sync. To make sure it does, just look at the manufacturer's description and then head over to the drivers download page for the particular model. If it supports G-Sync then Intel HD driver will not be on offer to download and install. Always check notebookcheck.net for a review of the laptop you're interested in, and look for "PWM not detected". PWM is also known to cause eye-strain and headaches.

Ssi_edgey · Dec 2, 2020

highradio Thanks for the response. Just a couple of things to bear in mind is that from many years of experience we know that everyone is different, so some of your points may not apply to some.

For example, many people do in fact have dithering issues with Nvidia / AMD graphics cards on desktop computers that use no Intel graphics. And the same thing with the PS4 / Xbox One. This became a problem around the same time that LED screens became prevalent, and different colour settings in the Nvidia control panel have been proven to trigger problematic temporal dithering by @Seagull and others.

Some monitors themselves seem to be involved in the dithering process also. And also something I've noted is that 'G-Sync Enabled' laptops are often referring to the fact they can connect to G-Sync monitors, and not necessarily that the laptop display itself is connected via G-Sync directly to the Nvidia card. I'd be interested in whether this means that the laptop display still uses the Intel drivers?

That's amazing that the first laptop you tried worked for you but there are many variables involved in the hardware alone, before you even start thinking about different brains...! This is why I thought it would be good to try a 'known-good' setup first, so thanks for the model number.

Hhighradio · Dec 2, 2020

si_edgey For a laptop to support G-Sync, the display has to be connected to the Nvidia card directly. There's no other way. I've not heard of any laptop manufacturer claim "G-sync supported only if you connect it to a G-sync display!". No, they all carry a G-sync display as standard. Go to any G-sync laptop's drivers download page, you'll not find intel HD drivers on offer. Manufacture's use a combination of Intel HD and Nvidia to ensure power savings and long battery life. But with gaming laptops that support G-sync, power saving becomes an oxymoron, so intel HD is omitted completely.

You might want to talk to people who report eyestrain with Nvidia or AMD desktop cards and see how they have connected their displays. Most likely it will turn out that they have connected their monitors using the default VGA port which is handled by Intel HD and also they will have Intel HD drivers installed on their system.

For me a G-Sync laptop with PWM free display solved the problem completely, and I hope it helps others.

SSeagull · Dec 2, 2020

highradio You might want to talk to people who report eyestrain with Nvidia or AMD desktop cards and see how they have connected their displays. Most likely it will turn out that they have connected their monitors using the default VGA port which is handled by Intel HD and also they will have Intel HD drivers installed on their system.

You've identified your problem and that's good. But please don't assume that everyone else here has the same problem. No one on here is unknowingly connecting their monitor to the integrated graphics rather than their discrete graphics card on their desktop PC. We are tech savy people. On my desktop PC at least, its not even possible to do that without changing a BIOS setting.

Ddiop · Dec 2, 2020

si_edgey For example, many people do in fact have dithering issues with Nvidia / AMD graphics cards on desktop computers that use no Intel graphics. And the same thing with the PS4 / Xbox One.

Just chiming in with this point too. Good to know there are usable PC setups out there, but myself and others have the same symptoms on games consoles/smart tv/media players where it's almost impossible to alter the setup.

Hhighradio · Dec 2, 2020

Seagull We are tech savy people

You might be tech savvy, but the silent majority landing on this page may be not.

Seagull No one on here is unknowingly connecting their monitor to the integrated graphics

There are a lot of people who make this unwitting mistake, and simply fixing it could mean an end to their suffering. After all this forum is not meant to solve one particular person's problem now is it? No point getting triggered buddy.
https://superuser.com/questions/511802/do-i-need-to-connect-my-graphics-card-to-my-monitor

There will be a lot of people landing on this page who'll have their problem fixed just by switching to a G-Sync supported laptop. You'll know what works for you when you actually try out what has worked for others. For some a PWM free display might solve the issue, for some a higher refresh rate monitor will work, some will have a faulty graphics card that needs to be replaced, and for some their problem might be totally unrelated to the device they're using. The point is, someone landing on this page will try out the various solutions suggested and might end up fixing their problem instead of going round and round endlessly. Chill out for them

Mmydevicedefineme · Dec 2, 2020

Any one getting any kind of eye strain or sleep using AMD Ryzen with vega graphics laptop?

AAfsvys · Dec 4, 2020

Has anyone had problems with a recent Windows update? I needed to use Best Buy's remote support, and now my eyestrain is back. I know that one of the things they did was update Windows 10 and drivers. I have a Lenovo Flex 5 and run ditherig. It doesn't have PWM, and ditherig helps, but now something else is hurting. Any thoughts? I have so much work to do right now, I need my laptop to be comfortable.

QQuad43 · Dec 5, 2020

highradio Thanks highradio. Looking to find an Acer that you mentioned but with 32gb, hard so far. What other options do you know that support this setup? It doesn't seem that any Dells do? Any other top tier brands?

Ssi_edgey · Jan 4, 2021

Quick update here - I have returned my M1 Macbook 13" 2020 as it causes the same inability to focus on the screen, headaches, neck pain and migraine as any other Macbook I have purchased since 2011 has caused me. I'm still using my Dell XPS 15 9560 with zero issues.

I am testing @highradio's hypothesis next and have ordered an HP Omen 15 with G-Sync for testing:

https://store.hp.com/UKStore/Merch/Product.aspx?id=3F854EA&opt=ABU&sel=NTB

I'll report back with my findings, fingers crossed.

QQuad43 · Jan 4, 2021

si_edgey Great! Interested to find out how it goes. I'm going to be testing a new Dell XPS (with eyesafe built-in) and hoping to try a Razer with G-Sync also

Ssi_edgey · Jan 7, 2021

Update on the Nvidia G-Sync enabled laptop I purchased, the HP Omen 15-ek0005na.

I booted up the laptop yesterday after receiving it and initially felt the familiar 'jitter' in my eyes, an inability for them to be at peace that I recognise from MacBooks and any laptop other than my working setup. This was followed by a dizzy feeling quite quickly.

I jumped into Device Manager and noticed that Intel UHD graphics were running alongside the RTX 2070. Opening the Omen Command Centre software there is an option to switch from Hybrid graphics (Intel & RTX - good for power saving / gaming occasionally) or to pure Discrete graphics:

After switching to Discrete and rebooting the Intel UHD graphics are gone from Device Manager, the display is calm and feels flat like paper, just like on my working setup. It's too early to say anything conclusive but so far this feels like a usable machine to me, after a few hours of gaming and a couple of hours of work. I have no eye strain, dizziness or nausea at all.

There are of course a few of downsides of G-Sync laptop:

being a gaming laptop, they are big and ugly - if it's for everyday work and travel the XPS 15 9560 would be my go-to
it's not silent even when idling, and makes a bit of a racket when gaming
power management in Discrete-only mode will be affected, so shorter battery life

But all of that is easily tradeable if it's a working machine, particularly if you're not cycling to work with it for example.

All of this appears to be further proof (as if needed!) that my issue lies exclusively with Intel drivers. It's time to go back to Intel with the evidence of how their software can turn a 'good' system 'bad'.

Lauda89 · Jan 7, 2021

si_edgey
Really interesting. Let's see if it's true or just a placebo effect.
What W10 are you using? 20H2?
With your daily XPS are you still with 2004?

I don't think the problem is all related to the intel driver. It would be an easy problem to resolve, just using an AMD or nvidia GPU or the new apple M1 chip.
But you weren't able to use the M1 mac, so i am still convinced that is an interaction problem of the entire chain OS, Driver and monitor and not only one of them.

Ssi_edgey · Jan 7, 2021

Lauda89 What W10 are you using? 20H2?
With your daily XPS are you still with 2004?

Both machines are on W10 v2004.

Lauda89 I don't think the problem is all related to the intel driver. It would be an easy problem to resolve, just using an AMD or nvidia GPU or the new apple M1 chip.
But you weren't able to use the M1 mac, so i am still convinced that is an interaction problem of the entire chain OS, Driver and monitor and not only one of them.

Quite possibly, and you're right about MacBooks - there's something baked into MacOS that really triggers me, Intel or otherwise.

Being able to quickly enable / bypass the Intel UHD graphics chip on this laptop is quite enlightening, it would be great if there were some simple tests that could be run with consumer hardware to identify the types of dithering and other flickering that are taking place by way of comparison between the two GPU setups on otherwise identical software and hardware.

DDominic · Jan 11, 2021

si_edgey I tried your Dell setup, but unfortunately it didn't work for me even though I tried different W10 versions and graphics drivers.

I will try out Omen with switchable graphics as well and I'm pretty optimistic about it.

Ssi_edgey · Jan 11, 2021

Dominic Sorry to hear that re: the Dell, that must've been frustrating.

Just an update on the Omen, I have been using it for 6-8 hours per day now for gaming and working and have experienced no eye strain from it at all PROVIDED it is switched into Discrete graphics mode as described above, bypassing the Intel UHD hardware.

Fingers crossed you get the same result.

QQuad43 · Jan 11, 2021

si_edgey I think the key is Ditherig 1.11 - it is much better than 1.12+3. I can't get it working now on any machines. I tried to buy the new XPS 9700 that comes with "eyesafe" technology in the screen. Unfortunately no luck at all, couldn't get it working. Gsync test for me next also

bkdo · Jan 11, 2021

si_edgey Congrats on finding something that works for you! That's very encouraging that Discrete mode removes the eye strain. I'm interested in trying this model as well, especially considering it doesn't use PWM either (Surprisingly). I'm currently stuck on a 2015 MacBook, so this seems like a huge jump in power if it works for my eyes.

If anyone else happens to try the Omen, please let us know if it works

Lauda89 · Jan 13, 2021

si_edgey It would be nice to send that notebook to someone like "bluer buster" and let them analyze it with the intel GPU enable and then with the Nvida GPU enable.
Some difference should be found!

Lauda89 · Jan 19, 2021

@si_edgey I have another question for you
Did you try to disable the intel GPU on your XPS? Is it possible?

Because I am having many problems with my working laptop so I need to figure out what to buy! I would try the HP spectre 360 15" OLED but it's not available here in Italy.
Thanks to the covid it's impossible to find the majority of the hardware

Ssi_edgey · Jan 19, 2021

Lauda89 Hi @Lauda89 - yes, disabling the Intel GPU in Device Manager was how I used the laptop for many years on Windows 10 v1511. That has downsides though - you're on the MS Basic Display Adapter, which means no power saving (hibernation / sleep mode etc) and obviously extremely limited GPU processing.

These days I just use the oldest drivers possible on Window 10 version 2004 (driver version 21.20.16.4475) and I can use it without symptoms. Switching to the later Intel drivers either makes me dizzy, or triggers a migraine.

I'd highly recommend this HP Omen 15 G-Sync laptop that I'm using right now, it's the most comfy laptop I've ever used, and I'm including my XPS 15 in that category. The only downsides are it's quite noisy and a bit ugly, what with it being a gaming laptop.

Can I ask why you think the OLED 360 will work for you? Are you generally able to used all OLED screens?

Lauda89 · Jan 19, 2021

si_edgey So if you disable the intel GPU you weren't able to use the Nvidia card? Maybe the screen is "link" only with the intel GPU and not also with the Nvidia?!
Instead, with GSYNC laptop the Nvidia card has to be linked to the screen or it couldn't work, right?!

Well, I've never had any problems with OLED phones (Samsung galaxy, Samsung S2, Iphone X and Pixel 4A) and also with my TV LG B8 (used with PS4, Nintendo Switch and chrome cast). So I am pretty optimistic about that
Maybe because they are true 10 bit? or maybe because the pixel response time is super low, I don't know to be honest!

Ssi_edgey · Jan 19, 2021

Lauda89 So if you disable the intel GPU you weren't able to use the Nvidia card? Maybe the screen is "link" only with the intel GPU and not also with the Nvidia?!
Instead, with GSYNC laptop the Nvidia card has to be linked to the screen or it couldn't work, right?!

From memory, this was the case - the Intel GPU was acting as the 'Master' GPU so when it was disabled, the MS Basic Display Adapter was used instead which wasn't able to access the Nvidia GPU.

But with this G-Sync laptop you can switch to Discrete mode where the Nvidia GPU is connected directly to the display, bypassing the Intel UHD altogether. So if the Intel graphics cause you problems (as it does form me) then this is a great solution. The display also feels very 'warm' to me - whites a milky and pleasant on the eyes.

Lauda89 Well, I've never had any problems with OLED phones (Samsung galaxy, Samsung S2, Iphone X and Pixel 4A) and also with my TV LG B8 (used with PS4, Nintendo Switch and chrome cast). So I am pretty optimistic about that
Maybe because they are true 10 bit? or maybe because the pixel response time is super low, I don't know to be honest!

Great! I've never actually tried an OLED panel in a device. Sounds like it's worth a shot, as long as there's a good returns policy. With HP you have 14 days to open and try a product before returning, and their returns are very slick - in the UK they collect the laptop from you to take it back.

SSeagull · Jan 19, 2021

Lauda89 maybe because the pixel response time is super low

I notice a difference in symptoms between LCDs and OLEDs. I think response time is a part of it, but also response time variance. If it takes a pixel _20ms to change, not all the pixels will change at the same rate due to imperfects in the crystals. Some will take 15, others 25 etc. I think the fuzziness this creates might make LCDs worse than OLED for some people. I want to do a study on this, but high speed cameras are expensive!

Ddiop · Jan 19, 2021

si_edgey I'd highly recommend this HP Omen 15 G-Sync laptop that I'm using right now, it's the most comfy laptop I've ever used, and I'm including my XPS 15 in that category. The only downsides are it's quite noisy and a bit ugly, what with it being a gaming laptop.

This sounds very promising! Are you using the latest Nvidia Driver? Is it just as comfortable using an external display?

This is sadly out of my price range for now however good to know that a new piece of tech is working for you.

Who do we flame to understand the science behind why this device works and others don't?

Ssi_edgey · Jan 26, 2021

diop Hey @diop, yes latest Nvidia drivers - I didn't test with an external display actually. But I used the laptop for the 14 day returns period every single day with great success, it's definitely a usable machine for me.

The noise and size of it weren't suitable for my laptop needs so I'm going to build a PC with a similar spec (it was an LG IPS G-Sync display in it) and see if I can get a usable system up and running. I'll report back of course.

Ddiop · Jan 28, 2021

si_edgey Thanks for the update.

How were apps working on the laptop? e.g. Could 'bad' apps such as Chrome etc work without symptoms?

Presumably a PC build w/IPS G-Sync monitor is going to be quite expensive?

In some respects it makes sense why G-Sync doesn't cause symptoms. AFAIK dithering algorithms are designed to work at a fixed frequency. Or baked-in dithering could be a failsafe by GPU manufacturers to ensure a consistent output across all external displays. I assume G-Sync (when handshaking with a G-Sync monitor) 'trusts' the capabilities of the panel and doesn't resort to trickery such as temporal dithering. There is also Freesync which is another avenue to explore in the future.

Ssi_edgey · Jan 28, 2021

diop How were apps working on the laptop? e.g. Could 'bad' apps such as Chrome etc work without symptoms?

Everything I used worked for me. I spent a lot of the 14 days gaming as I've got about a decade of games to catch up on!

diop Presumably a PC build w/IPS G-Sync monitor is going to be quite expensive?

It depends on what you go for but it certainly doesn't have to be that expensive - I'm going for a top spec machine (Ryzen 7 // RTX 3080)and it's coming in a little over the cost of the laptop (which was £1600) but for a huge leap in power. The G-Sync monitors aren't ridiculous from what I've found so far but need to do a bit of digging.

diop In some respects it makes sense why G-Sync doesn't cause symptoms. AFAIK dithering algorithms are designed to work at a fixed frequency. Or baked-in dithering could be a failsafe by GPU manufacturers to ensure a consistent output across all external displays. I assume G-Sync (when handshaking with a G-Sync monitor) 'trusts' the capabilities of the panel and doesn't resort to trickery such as temporal dithering. There is also Freesync which is another avenue to explore in the future.

It's difficult to know, but I have read that G-Sync involves a specific hardware module in the monitor which enables the refresh rate trickery, whereas Freesync doesn't require this. When checking out Freesync laptops it appears that they don't necessarily bypass the built in iGPU in the same way that Nvidia G-Sync does, so that could be an issue.

I'm tempted to try and return another G-Sync laptop, because that would begin to rule out just 'striking it lucky' with the first one I tried. Having read about Nvidia Advanced Optimus, I'm wondering if this could potentially be a game-changer, given my good experience with G-Sync.

Advanced Optimus has a hardware display switcher between the iGPU and dGPU:

This means that the frame buffer of the discrete GPU isn't being sent to the integrated GPU (ie Intel / Radeon) to be drawn on the screen. Therefore as long as you can use one GPU successfully, it'll be directly connected to the display. Knowing that I am able to use the Nvidia dGPU in the HP Omen (but not the Intel iGPU), the ability to dynamically switch to dGPU only seems like it could be a great thing.

It feels like it would also rule out the physical hardware of the iGPU output stage as an issue. The HP Omen has a MUX (display switcher) that requires a restart when you switch between GPUs, but when connected directly to the dGPU the display just feels completely different to me, in a very good way.

Here's a video on it to check out:

https://youtu.be/7gScS-4Hk3U

On another note, between testing out the Macbook M1 (horrible), a MS Surface (horrible) and the HP Omen (beautiful) I hadn't used my XPS 15 in a long time. Going back to it, somehow it had updated drivers and OS functionality (still on 2004 though) without me realising. I used it for half a day, blissfully unaware that the Intel drivers (amongst many others) had updated before I started to get an almighty migraine which is still lingering 2 days on.

Sometimes little 'blind tests' like this are handy to satisfy me that I'm not completely nuts.

Ddiop · Jan 28, 2021

si_edgey Sometimes little 'blind tests' like this are handy to satisfy me that I'm not completely nuts.

Oh yeah definitely. I just have to dig out any of my >2015 PC's and I get symptoms within minutes. Also Xbox One S and Smart TV apps are a no go.

I'm interested to know what would happen if a G-Sync GPU outputs to a fixed panel (say a standard Dell monitor at 60hz) VS a G-Sync panel. Hopefully we find out all G-Sync enabled tech works fine. It would then suggest to me that dithering has been a ploy all along to prevent banding on poor quality (<8bit) panels.

MMPaz · Jan 31, 2021

Hi,

I'm curious about your theory that G-Sync might be the solution and would like to test it on a Desktop (if possible). You were mainly talking about laptops, so I was wondering if in your opinion buying a monitor with G-sync (native) might make a difference on a desktop, compared to a monitor without G-Sync?

Current setup (that I can't use):

RTX 3090
Windows 10 (20H2)
Intel UHD drivers deleted from the Device Manager
BENQ EX3501R (8 bit) monitor - connected via DP to the GPU (also I have BENQ GL2450).

Some background on my other tech:

PC: I don't have any computer setup that I could normally use. (Everything started with a Macbook Pro about 4 years ago.)
Phone: I'm using my Pixel 2 which is quite fine for a while, compared to a bunch of other phones I tried that made me feel the symptoms almost instantly. The last phone I tried was Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra which also causes me the symptoms immediately.
Smart TV: The last couple of years I was doing most of the learning on my Samsung (UE43MU6172U) Smart TV - watching online courses on Youtube and Internet apps, which is quite fine. However, watching movies with subtitles on Netflix app causes me the symptoms.

Some background on my health:

Eyes: mild mixed astigmatism (since chilhood) and exophoria which was diagnosed a few months ago. Still trying to understand whether glasses with prisms will help me or not.
I'm also currently having issues with my thyroid, which is probably just a "side effect" as my blood tests were normal a couple of years back.

Ssi_edgey · Jan 31, 2021

MPaz I was wondering if in your opinion buying a monitor with G-sync (native) might make a difference on a desktop, compared to a monitor without G-Sync?

Unfortunately it's literally impossible to say what will work for someone else, as there are so many variables in the tech alone, before we start thinking about brains! However the HP Omen mentioned above was the best experience I've had with a laptop in 10 years, so it's a promising start. Given you already have a very high end setup, it couldn't hurt to try a G-Sync monitor from a shop where you can easily return it? Out of interest, which brand is your RTX 3090?

I'm actually thinking about ordering a Razer Blade 15 to try - the 2021 RTX 3070 QHD Advanced model has a G-Sync display with the new Nvidia Advanced Optimus tech I mention above - could be an interesting test.

MPaz Eyes: mild mixed astigmatism (since chilhood) and exophoria which was diagnosed a few months ago

Maybe check out some threads and posts from @martin who has a lot of interesting things to say about eye health.

MMPaz · Jan 31, 2021

si_edgey
Thanks for your answer Okay, I might try a monitor with G-Sync and would let you know. I just thought that you could explain what theoretically that would change. As I understand, even though I connected my current monitor directly to Nvidia GPU, it still might use Intel iGPU for some tasks? And monitor with G-sync could avoid iGPU entirely?

si_edgey Out of interest, which brand is your RTX 3090?

It's ASUS TUF.

si_edgey I'm actually thinking about ordering a Razer Blade 15 to try - the 2021 RTX 3070 QHD Advanced model has a G-Sync display with the new Nvidia Advanced Optimus tech I mention above - could be an interesting test.

Great! Let us know what you'll find. I've seen someone having issues with RTX 30 GPUs, so would be good to know if it causes you symptoms or not.

si_edgey Maybe check out some threads and posts from @martin who has a lot of interesting things to say about eye health.

Thanks for your suggestion, but yes, actually, he's the reason why I decided to look for a specialist who could test me for heterophoria in the first place. So, I was following health related threads for a while as well.

Ssi_edgey · Jan 31, 2021

MPaz As I understand, even though I connected my current monitor directly to Nvidia GPU, it still might use Intel iGPU for some tasks? And monitor with G-sync could avoid iGPU entirely?

Ah no, this isn't correct - if you're on a desktop machine and are connected directly to the discrete GPU (ie your 3090) then the Intel graphics on the processor will by bypassed entirely. Only if you were to connect to the HDMI output of your motherboard would the Intel graphics come into play.

In fact, if you go to device manager you shouldn't even see the Intel graphics listed - if they are showing then you can normally disable onboard graphics in the BIOS for peace of mind. :]

The confusion comes with laptop GPUs. On a laptop with an integrated GPU + discrete GPU, if additional horsepower is needed (for games / video editing etc) then the discrete GPU kicks into gear. However, every frame that the dGPU renders is passed to the integrated GPU to actually display it on the screen. So the iGPU is the one that has to work for you.

So in your circumstance, using a G-Sync monitor will only allow you to use variable refresh rates when gaming. But what we're hoping is that the actual hardware in a G-Sync product may eliminate the need for dithering / flickering that causes a lot of us issues.

On a G-Sync laptop, you can enable a hardware switch (MUX) which connects the display directly to the dGPU, bypassing the iGPU altogether, hence if (like me) you have a particular problem with iGPU drivers / hardware, then you can bypass it altogether for a working setup.

Our issues seem to come from bad combinations of:

drivers
the software you're running
GPUs
cables
monitors

All of these can impact whatever 'flickering' it is that triggers your symptoms. So it's necessary to find the right combination that works for each individual. I'm curious as to whether I just struck it lucky with the HP Omen I bought and the planets aligned to make a usable machine, or whether G-Sync hardware communicates in such a way that it always eliminates the issues. Certainly, @highradio had the same results from his G-Sync machine which kicked off this new avenue to explore.

Let's keep fingers crossed for the latter. Not holding my breath though...

MMPaz · Feb 2, 2021

si_edgey Thanks for the explanation!

I might try Dell AW2721D (G-Sync Ultimate) –
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/77ac224f

However, I realized that it's 8 bits + FRC (10 bits). As I understand, FRC could also cause problems, so I wanted to ask if it's possible to disable FRC by just choosing 8 bits, or should I look for another G-Sync monitor, without FRC?

EDIT: In other forums I found that it can be disabled in Nvidia Control Panel. I will order this monitor in a couple of hours, so if you have any comments - let me know ASAP

Ssi_edgey · Feb 2, 2021

MPaz Good luck with it - there's no way to recommend anything at the moment as we're right at the beginning of this G-Sync adventure. Curious to hear how you get on with that. The only I'd say is that personally I'm yet to comfortably use a screen beyond 1080p FHD, so the QHD would put me off. That's purely anecdotal though, and I haven't tried many higher res screens yet.

MMPaz · Feb 2, 2021

Unfortunately, I found that many people are having issues with AW2721D monitor and displays with NanoIPS in general, so for now I'll probably look into other IPS / VA alternatives with G-Sync.

They say that the reason is:
"Colors are oversaturated because it's using a DCI-P3 color space instead of sRGB and the KSF red phosphor in the backlight is way too vibrant, the red color is the main cause of eye strain."

However, many people who decided to stick with NanoIPS monitors say that they got used to them in 1-2 weeks. So, I need to figure if I would be able to return it before ordering and then I might try it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/k0zuy2/aw2721d_eye_strain/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/jn7u7v/s2721dgf_causing_intense_eye_strain_and_weirdness/

EDIT: decided to avoid NanoIPS for now and ordered Asus ROG Swift PG259QN to try. I'll get it only in about 2 weeks, so will let you know as soon as I can.

MMPaz · Feb 26, 2021

@highradio
si_edgey Hey, so I just wanted to let you know that it's been around a week since I got the Asus PG259QNR monitor to test the Nvidia GPU + G-sync display theory. However, it still causes me the symptoms and I haven't found a way to make it better (still trying various things).

DisplayPort + RGB Full – seem to be the best, but it still causes eyestrain. I guess the monitor itself might cause it?

Using HDMI cable or ycbcr422 – seem to make it even worse - eye strain, immediately harder to focus, etc.

Maybe someone could suggest, what are the key things to try on this setup? (RTX 3090; Asus
PG259QNR; Win 10 20H2)

Mmagiks · Feb 26, 2021

I would like only to ask those ones who are trying setups that bypass Intel HD - I know that it's obvious question, but I want to know, have you tried ditherig program on Intel HD? Is it not making things better for you on Intel HD? It's not perfect but for me this program gives a lot of relief.

Gglvn · Apr 13, 2021

si_edgey I did have a period where I started getting headaches again, and I noticed that dithering was periodically being enabled at seemingly random intervals, but probably because some request was made to the graphics drivers. I realised this was happening because my desktop background (colour #c84141) shows banding when everything is set up correctly, and no banding when my display is problematic for me

If I understand you correctly, you have a banding on a desktop wallpaper from one solid color c84141 ?
But how is it possible if only one color is used? ..or OS (Win 10) adds some post-processing/effects(??) that increases the number of color gradations?