Temporal Dithering Sensitivity - My Solution
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Update on the Nvidia G-Sync enabled laptop I purchased, the HP Omen 15-ek0005na.
I booted up the laptop yesterday after receiving it and initially felt the familiar 'jitter' in my eyes, an inability for them to be at peace that I recognise from MacBooks and any laptop other than my working setup. This was followed by a dizzy feeling quite quickly.
I jumped into Device Manager and noticed that Intel UHD graphics were running alongside the RTX 2070. Opening the Omen Command Centre software there is an option to switch from Hybrid graphics (Intel & RTX - good for power saving / gaming occasionally) or to pure Discrete graphics:
After switching to Discrete and rebooting the Intel UHD graphics are gone from Device Manager, the display is calm and feels flat like paper, just like on my working setup. It's too early to say anything conclusive but so far this feels like a usable machine to me, after a few hours of gaming and a couple of hours of work. I have no eye strain, dizziness or nausea at all.
There are of course a few of downsides of G-Sync laptop:
- being a gaming laptop, they are big and ugly - if it's for everyday work and travel the XPS 15 9560 would be my go-to
- it's not silent even when idling, and makes a bit of a racket when gaming
- power management in Discrete-only mode will be affected, so shorter battery life
But all of that is easily tradeable if it's a working machine, particularly if you're not cycling to work with it for example.
All of this appears to be further proof (as if needed!) that my issue lies exclusively with Intel drivers. It's time to go back to Intel with the evidence of how their software can turn a 'good' system 'bad'.
si_edgey
Really interesting. Let's see if it's true or just a placebo effect.
What W10 are you using? 20H2?
With your daily XPS are you still with 2004?
I don't think the problem is all related to the intel driver. It would be an easy problem to resolve, just using an AMD or nvidia GPU or the new apple M1 chip.
But you weren't able to use the M1 mac, so i am still convinced that is an interaction problem of the entire chain OS, Driver and monitor and not only one of them.
Lauda89 What W10 are you using? 20H2?
With your daily XPS are you still with 2004?
Both machines are on W10 v2004.
Lauda89 I don't think the problem is all related to the intel driver. It would be an easy problem to resolve, just using an AMD or nvidia GPU or the new apple M1 chip.
But you weren't able to use the M1 mac, so i am still convinced that is an interaction problem of the entire chain OS, Driver and monitor and not only one of them.
Quite possibly, and you're right about MacBooks - there's something baked into MacOS that really triggers me, Intel or otherwise.
Being able to quickly enable / bypass the Intel UHD graphics chip on this laptop is quite enlightening, it would be great if there were some simple tests that could be run with consumer hardware to identify the types of dithering and other flickering that are taking place by way of comparison between the two GPU setups on otherwise identical software and hardware.
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Dominic Sorry to hear that re: the Dell, that must've been frustrating.
Just an update on the Omen, I have been using it for 6-8 hours per day now for gaming and working and have experienced no eye strain from it at all PROVIDED it is switched into Discrete graphics mode as described above, bypassing the Intel UHD hardware.
Fingers crossed you get the same result.
si_edgey Congrats on finding something that works for you! That's very encouraging that Discrete mode removes the eye strain. I'm interested in trying this model as well, especially considering it doesn't use PWM either (Surprisingly). I'm currently stuck on a 2015 MacBook, so this seems like a huge jump in power if it works for my eyes.
If anyone else happens to try the Omen, please let us know if it works 
@si_edgey I have another question for you 
Did you try to disable the intel GPU on your XPS? Is it possible?
Because I am having many problems with my working laptop so I need to figure out what to buy! I would try the HP spectre 360 15" OLED but it's not available here in Italy.
Thanks to the covid it's impossible to find the majority of the hardware 
Lauda89 Hi @Lauda89 - yes, disabling the Intel GPU in Device Manager was how I used the laptop for many years on Windows 10 v1511. That has downsides though - you're on the MS Basic Display Adapter, which means no power saving (hibernation / sleep mode etc) and obviously extremely limited GPU processing.
These days I just use the oldest drivers possible on Window 10 version 2004 (driver version 21.20.16.4475) and I can use it without symptoms. Switching to the later Intel drivers either makes me dizzy, or triggers a migraine.
I'd highly recommend this HP Omen 15 G-Sync laptop that I'm using right now, it's the most comfy laptop I've ever used, and I'm including my XPS 15 in that category. The only downsides are it's quite noisy and a bit ugly, what with it being a gaming laptop.
Can I ask why you think the OLED 360 will work for you? Are you generally able to used all OLED screens?
si_edgey So if you disable the intel GPU you weren't able to use the Nvidia card? Maybe the screen is "link" only with the intel GPU and not also with the Nvidia?!
Instead, with GSYNC laptop the Nvidia card has to be linked to the screen or it couldn't work, right?!
Well, I've never had any problems with OLED phones (Samsung galaxy, Samsung S2, Iphone X and Pixel 4A) and also with my TV LG B8 (used with PS4, Nintendo Switch and chrome cast). So I am pretty optimistic about that
Maybe because they are true 10 bit? or maybe because the pixel response time is super low, I don't know to be honest!
Lauda89 So if you disable the intel GPU you weren't able to use the Nvidia card? Maybe the screen is "link" only with the intel GPU and not also with the Nvidia?!
Instead, with GSYNC laptop the Nvidia card has to be linked to the screen or it couldn't work, right?!
From memory, this was the case - the Intel GPU was acting as the 'Master' GPU so when it was disabled, the MS Basic Display Adapter was used instead which wasn't able to access the Nvidia GPU.
But with this G-Sync laptop you can switch to Discrete mode where the Nvidia GPU is connected directly to the display, bypassing the Intel UHD altogether. So if the Intel graphics cause you problems (as it does form me) then this is a great solution. The display also feels very 'warm' to me - whites a milky and pleasant on the eyes.
Lauda89 Well, I've never had any problems with OLED phones (Samsung galaxy, Samsung S2, Iphone X and Pixel 4A) and also with my TV LG B8 (used with PS4, Nintendo Switch and chrome cast). So I am pretty optimistic about that
Maybe because they are true 10 bit? or maybe because the pixel response time is super low, I don't know to be honest!
Great! I've never actually tried an OLED panel in a device. Sounds like it's worth a shot, as long as there's a good returns policy. With HP you have 14 days to open and try a product before returning, and their returns are very slick - in the UK they collect the laptop from you to take it back.
Lauda89 maybe because the pixel response time is super low
I notice a difference in symptoms between LCDs and OLEDs. I think response time is a part of it, but also response time variance. If it takes a pixel 20ms to change, not all the pixels will change at the same rate due to imperfects in the crystals. Some will take 15, others 25 etc. I think the fuzziness this creates might make LCDs worse than OLED for some people. I want to do a study on this, but high speed cameras are expensive!
si_edgey I'd highly recommend this HP Omen 15 G-Sync laptop that I'm using right now, it's the most comfy laptop I've ever used, and I'm including my XPS 15 in that category. The only downsides are it's quite noisy and a bit ugly, what with it being a gaming laptop.
This sounds very promising! Are you using the latest Nvidia Driver? Is it just as comfortable using an external display?
This is sadly out of my price range for now however good to know that a new piece of tech is working for you.
Who do we flame to understand the science behind why this device works and others don't?
diop Hey @diop, yes latest Nvidia drivers - I didn't test with an external display actually. But I used the laptop for the 14 day returns period every single day with great success, it's definitely a usable machine for me. 
The noise and size of it weren't suitable for my laptop needs so I'm going to build a PC with a similar spec (it was an LG IPS G-Sync display in it) and see if I can get a usable system up and running. I'll report back of course. 
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si_edgey Thanks for the update.
How were apps working on the laptop? e.g. Could 'bad' apps such as Chrome etc work without symptoms?
Presumably a PC build w/IPS G-Sync monitor is going to be quite expensive?
In some respects it makes sense why G-Sync doesn't cause symptoms. AFAIK dithering algorithms are designed to work at a fixed frequency. Or baked-in dithering could be a failsafe by GPU manufacturers to ensure a consistent output across all external displays. I assume G-Sync (when handshaking with a G-Sync monitor) 'trusts' the capabilities of the panel and doesn't resort to trickery such as temporal dithering. There is also Freesync which is another avenue to explore in the future.
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diop How were apps working on the laptop? e.g. Could 'bad' apps such as Chrome etc work without symptoms?
Everything I used worked for me. I spent a lot of the 14 days gaming as I've got about a decade of games to catch up on!
diop Presumably a PC build w/IPS G-Sync monitor is going to be quite expensive?
It depends on what you go for but it certainly doesn't have to be that expensive - I'm going for a top spec machine (Ryzen 7 // RTX 3080)and it's coming in a little over the cost of the laptop (which was £1600) but for a huge leap in power. The G-Sync monitors aren't ridiculous from what I've found so far but need to do a bit of digging.
diop In some respects it makes sense why G-Sync doesn't cause symptoms. AFAIK dithering algorithms are designed to work at a fixed frequency. Or baked-in dithering could be a failsafe by GPU manufacturers to ensure a consistent output across all external displays. I assume G-Sync (when handshaking with a G-Sync monitor) 'trusts' the capabilities of the panel and doesn't resort to trickery such as temporal dithering. There is also Freesync which is another avenue to explore in the future.
It's difficult to know, but I have read that G-Sync involves a specific hardware module in the monitor which enables the refresh rate trickery, whereas Freesync doesn't require this. When checking out Freesync laptops it appears that they don't necessarily bypass the built in iGPU in the same way that Nvidia G-Sync does, so that could be an issue.
I'm tempted to try and return another G-Sync laptop, because that would begin to rule out just 'striking it lucky' with the first one I tried. Having read about Nvidia Advanced Optimus, I'm wondering if this could potentially be a game-changer, given my good experience with G-Sync.
Advanced Optimus has a hardware display switcher between the iGPU and dGPU:
This means that the frame buffer of the discrete GPU isn't being sent to the integrated GPU (ie Intel / Radeon) to be drawn on the screen. Therefore as long as you can use one GPU successfully, it'll be directly connected to the display. Knowing that I am able to use the Nvidia dGPU in the HP Omen (but not the Intel iGPU), the ability to dynamically switch to dGPU only seems like it could be a great thing.
It feels like it would also rule out the physical hardware of the iGPU output stage as an issue. The HP Omen has a MUX (display switcher) that requires a restart when you switch between GPUs, but when connected directly to the dGPU the display just feels completely different to me, in a very good way.
Here's a video on it to check out:
On another note, between testing out the Macbook M1 (horrible), a MS Surface (horrible) and the HP Omen (beautiful) I hadn't used my XPS 15 in a long time. Going back to it, somehow it had updated drivers and OS functionality (still on 2004 though) without me realising. I used it for half a day, blissfully unaware that the Intel drivers (amongst many others) had updated before I started to get an almighty migraine which is still lingering 2 days on.
Sometimes little 'blind tests' like this are handy to satisfy me that I'm not completely nuts.
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si_edgey Sometimes little 'blind tests' like this are handy to satisfy me that I'm not completely nuts.
Oh yeah definitely. I just have to dig out any of my >2015 PC's and I get symptoms within minutes. Also Xbox One S and Smart TV apps are a no go.
I'm interested to know what would happen if a G-Sync GPU outputs to a fixed panel (say a standard Dell monitor at 60hz) VS a G-Sync panel. Hopefully we find out all G-Sync enabled tech works fine. It would then suggest to me that dithering has been a ploy all along to prevent banding on poor quality (<8bit) panels.
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Hi,
I'm curious about your theory that G-Sync might be the solution and would like to test it on a Desktop (if possible). You were mainly talking about laptops, so I was wondering if in your opinion buying a monitor with G-sync (native) might make a difference on a desktop, compared to a monitor without G-Sync?
Current setup (that I can't use):
- RTX 3090
- Windows 10 (20H2)
- Intel UHD drivers deleted from the Device Manager
- BENQ EX3501R (8 bit) monitor - connected via DP to the GPU (also I have BENQ GL2450).
Some background on my other tech:
- PC: I don't have any computer setup that I could normally use. (Everything started with a Macbook Pro about 4 years ago.)
- Phone: I'm using my Pixel 2 which is quite fine for a while, compared to a bunch of other phones I tried that made me feel the symptoms almost instantly. The last phone I tried was Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra which also causes me the symptoms immediately.
- Smart TV: The last couple of years I was doing most of the learning on my Samsung (UE43MU6172U) Smart TV - watching online courses on Youtube and Internet apps, which is quite fine. However, watching movies with subtitles on Netflix app causes me the symptoms.
Some background on my health:
- Eyes: mild mixed astigmatism (since chilhood) and exophoria which was diagnosed a few months ago. Still trying to understand whether glasses with prisms will help me or not.
- I'm also currently having issues with my thyroid, which is probably just a "side effect" as my blood tests were normal a couple of years back.