@si_edgey I have another question for you 
Did you try to disable the intel GPU on your XPS? Is it possible?
Because I am having many problems with my working laptop so I need to figure out what to buy! I would try the HP spectre 360 15" OLED but it's not available here in Italy.
Thanks to the covid it's impossible to find the majority of the hardware 
Lauda89 Hi @Lauda89 - yes, disabling the Intel GPU in Device Manager was how I used the laptop for many years on Windows 10 v1511. That has downsides though - you're on the MS Basic Display Adapter, which means no power saving (hibernation / sleep mode etc) and obviously extremely limited GPU processing.
These days I just use the oldest drivers possible on Window 10 version 2004 (driver version 21.20.16.4475) and I can use it without symptoms. Switching to the later Intel drivers either makes me dizzy, or triggers a migraine.
I'd highly recommend this HP Omen 15 G-Sync laptop that I'm using right now, it's the most comfy laptop I've ever used, and I'm including my XPS 15 in that category. The only downsides are it's quite noisy and a bit ugly, what with it being a gaming laptop.
Can I ask why you think the OLED 360 will work for you? Are you generally able to used all OLED screens?
si_edgey So if you disable the intel GPU you weren't able to use the Nvidia card? Maybe the screen is "link" only with the intel GPU and not also with the Nvidia?!
Instead, with GSYNC laptop the Nvidia card has to be linked to the screen or it couldn't work, right?!
Well, I've never had any problems with OLED phones (Samsung galaxy, Samsung S2, Iphone X and Pixel 4A) and also with my TV LG B8 (used with PS4, Nintendo Switch and chrome cast). So I am pretty optimistic about that
Maybe because they are true 10 bit? or maybe because the pixel response time is super low, I don't know to be honest!
Lauda89 So if you disable the intel GPU you weren't able to use the Nvidia card? Maybe the screen is "link" only with the intel GPU and not also with the Nvidia?!
Instead, with GSYNC laptop the Nvidia card has to be linked to the screen or it couldn't work, right?!
From memory, this was the case - the Intel GPU was acting as the 'Master' GPU so when it was disabled, the MS Basic Display Adapter was used instead which wasn't able to access the Nvidia GPU.
But with this G-Sync laptop you can switch to Discrete mode where the Nvidia GPU is connected directly to the display, bypassing the Intel UHD altogether. So if the Intel graphics cause you problems (as it does form me) then this is a great solution. The display also feels very 'warm' to me - whites a milky and pleasant on the eyes.
Lauda89 Well, I've never had any problems with OLED phones (Samsung galaxy, Samsung S2, Iphone X and Pixel 4A) and also with my TV LG B8 (used with PS4, Nintendo Switch and chrome cast). So I am pretty optimistic about that
Maybe because they are true 10 bit? or maybe because the pixel response time is super low, I don't know to be honest!
Great! I've never actually tried an OLED panel in a device. Sounds like it's worth a shot, as long as there's a good returns policy. With HP you have 14 days to open and try a product before returning, and their returns are very slick - in the UK they collect the laptop from you to take it back.
Lauda89 maybe because the pixel response time is super low
I notice a difference in symptoms between LCDs and OLEDs. I think response time is a part of it, but also response time variance. If it takes a pixel 20ms to change, not all the pixels will change at the same rate due to imperfects in the crystals. Some will take 15, others 25 etc. I think the fuzziness this creates might make LCDs worse than OLED for some people. I want to do a study on this, but high speed cameras are expensive!
si_edgey I'd highly recommend this HP Omen 15 G-Sync laptop that I'm using right now, it's the most comfy laptop I've ever used, and I'm including my XPS 15 in that category. The only downsides are it's quite noisy and a bit ugly, what with it being a gaming laptop.
This sounds very promising! Are you using the latest Nvidia Driver? Is it just as comfortable using an external display?
This is sadly out of my price range for now however good to know that a new piece of tech is working for you.
Who do we flame to understand the science behind why this device works and others don't?
diop Hey @diop, yes latest Nvidia drivers - I didn't test with an external display actually. But I used the laptop for the 14 day returns period every single day with great success, it's definitely a usable machine for me. 
The noise and size of it weren't suitable for my laptop needs so I'm going to build a PC with a similar spec (it was an LG IPS G-Sync display in it) and see if I can get a usable system up and running. I'll report back of course. 
si_edgey Thanks for the update.
How were apps working on the laptop? e.g. Could 'bad' apps such as Chrome etc work without symptoms?
Presumably a PC build w/IPS G-Sync monitor is going to be quite expensive?
In some respects it makes sense why G-Sync doesn't cause symptoms. AFAIK dithering algorithms are designed to work at a fixed frequency. Or baked-in dithering could be a failsafe by GPU manufacturers to ensure a consistent output across all external displays. I assume G-Sync (when handshaking with a G-Sync monitor) 'trusts' the capabilities of the panel and doesn't resort to trickery such as temporal dithering. There is also Freesync which is another avenue to explore in the future.
diop How were apps working on the laptop? e.g. Could 'bad' apps such as Chrome etc work without symptoms?
Everything I used worked for me. I spent a lot of the 14 days gaming as I've got about a decade of games to catch up on!
diop Presumably a PC build w/IPS G-Sync monitor is going to be quite expensive?
It depends on what you go for but it certainly doesn't have to be that expensive - I'm going for a top spec machine (Ryzen 7 // RTX 3080)and it's coming in a little over the cost of the laptop (which was £1600) but for a huge leap in power. The G-Sync monitors aren't ridiculous from what I've found so far but need to do a bit of digging.
diop In some respects it makes sense why G-Sync doesn't cause symptoms. AFAIK dithering algorithms are designed to work at a fixed frequency. Or baked-in dithering could be a failsafe by GPU manufacturers to ensure a consistent output across all external displays. I assume G-Sync (when handshaking with a G-Sync monitor) 'trusts' the capabilities of the panel and doesn't resort to trickery such as temporal dithering. There is also Freesync which is another avenue to explore in the future.
It's difficult to know, but I have read that G-Sync involves a specific hardware module in the monitor which enables the refresh rate trickery, whereas Freesync doesn't require this. When checking out Freesync laptops it appears that they don't necessarily bypass the built in iGPU in the same way that Nvidia G-Sync does, so that could be an issue.
I'm tempted to try and return another G-Sync laptop, because that would begin to rule out just 'striking it lucky' with the first one I tried. Having read about Nvidia Advanced Optimus, I'm wondering if this could potentially be a game-changer, given my good experience with G-Sync.
Advanced Optimus has a hardware display switcher between the iGPU and dGPU:
This means that the frame buffer of the discrete GPU isn't being sent to the integrated GPU (ie Intel / Radeon) to be drawn on the screen. Therefore as long as you can use one GPU successfully, it'll be directly connected to the display. Knowing that I am able to use the Nvidia dGPU in the HP Omen (but not the Intel iGPU), the ability to dynamically switch to dGPU only seems like it could be a great thing.
It feels like it would also rule out the physical hardware of the iGPU output stage as an issue. The HP Omen has a MUX (display switcher) that requires a restart when you switch between GPUs, but when connected directly to the dGPU the display just feels completely different to me, in a very good way.
Here's a video on it to check out:
On another note, between testing out the Macbook M1 (horrible), a MS Surface (horrible) and the HP Omen (beautiful) I hadn't used my XPS 15 in a long time. Going back to it, somehow it had updated drivers and OS functionality (still on 2004 though) without me realising. I used it for half a day, blissfully unaware that the Intel drivers (amongst many others) had updated before I started to get an almighty migraine which is still lingering 2 days on.
Sometimes little 'blind tests' like this are handy to satisfy me that I'm not completely nuts.
si_edgey Sometimes little 'blind tests' like this are handy to satisfy me that I'm not completely nuts.
Oh yeah definitely. I just have to dig out any of my >2015 PC's and I get symptoms within minutes. Also Xbox One S and Smart TV apps are a no go.
I'm interested to know what would happen if a G-Sync GPU outputs to a fixed panel (say a standard Dell monitor at 60hz) VS a G-Sync panel. Hopefully we find out all G-Sync enabled tech works fine. It would then suggest to me that dithering has been a ploy all along to prevent banding on poor quality (<8bit) panels.
Hi,
I'm curious about your theory that G-Sync might be the solution and would like to test it on a Desktop (if possible). You were mainly talking about laptops, so I was wondering if in your opinion buying a monitor with G-sync (native) might make a difference on a desktop, compared to a monitor without G-Sync?
Current setup (that I can't use):
Some background on my other tech:
Some background on my health:
MPaz I was wondering if in your opinion buying a monitor with G-sync (native) might make a difference on a desktop, compared to a monitor without G-Sync?
Unfortunately it's literally impossible to say what will work for someone else, as there are so many variables in the tech alone, before we start thinking about brains! However the HP Omen mentioned above was the best experience I've had with a laptop in 10 years, so it's a promising start. Given you already have a very high end setup, it couldn't hurt to try a G-Sync monitor from a shop where you can easily return it? Out of interest, which brand is your RTX 3090?
I'm actually thinking about ordering a Razer Blade 15 to try - the 2021 RTX 3070 QHD Advanced model has a G-Sync display with the new Nvidia Advanced Optimus tech I mention above - could be an interesting test.
MPaz Eyes: mild mixed astigmatism (since chilhood) and exophoria which was diagnosed a few months ago
Maybe check out some threads and posts from @martin who has a lot of interesting things to say about eye health.
si_edgey
Thanks for your answer Okay, I might try a monitor with G-Sync and would let you know. I just thought that you could explain what theoretically that would change. As I understand, even though I connected my current monitor directly to Nvidia GPU, it still might use Intel iGPU for some tasks? And monitor with G-sync could avoid iGPU entirely?
si_edgey Out of interest, which brand is your RTX 3090?
It's ASUS TUF.
si_edgey I'm actually thinking about ordering a Razer Blade 15 to try - the 2021 RTX 3070 QHD Advanced model has a G-Sync display with the new Nvidia Advanced Optimus tech I mention above - could be an interesting test.
Great! Let us know what you'll find. I've seen someone having issues with RTX 30 GPUs, so would be good to know if it causes you symptoms or not.
Thanks for your suggestion, but yes, actually, he's the reason why I decided to look for a specialist who could test me for heterophoria in the first place. So, I was following health related threads for a while as well.
MPaz As I understand, even though I connected my current monitor directly to Nvidia GPU, it still might use Intel iGPU for some tasks? And monitor with G-sync could avoid iGPU entirely?
Ah no, this isn't correct - if you're on a desktop machine and are connected directly to the discrete GPU (ie your 3090) then the Intel graphics on the processor will by bypassed entirely. Only if you were to connect to the HDMI output of your motherboard would the Intel graphics come into play.
In fact, if you go to device manager you shouldn't even see the Intel graphics listed - if they are showing then you can normally disable onboard graphics in the BIOS for peace of mind. :]
The confusion comes with laptop GPUs. On a laptop with an integrated GPU + discrete GPU, if additional horsepower is needed (for games / video editing etc) then the discrete GPU kicks into gear. However, every frame that the dGPU renders is passed to the integrated GPU to actually display it on the screen. So the iGPU is the one that has to work for you.
So in your circumstance, using a G-Sync monitor will only allow you to use variable refresh rates when gaming. But what we're hoping is that the actual hardware in a G-Sync product may eliminate the need for dithering / flickering that causes a lot of us issues.
On a G-Sync laptop, you can enable a hardware switch (MUX) which connects the display directly to the dGPU, bypassing the iGPU altogether, hence if (like me) you have a particular problem with iGPU drivers / hardware, then you can bypass it altogether for a working setup.
Our issues seem to come from bad combinations of:
All of these can impact whatever 'flickering' it is that triggers your symptoms. So it's necessary to find the right combination that works for each individual. I'm curious as to whether I just struck it lucky with the HP Omen I bought and the planets aligned to make a usable machine, or whether G-Sync hardware communicates in such a way that it always eliminates the issues. Certainly, @highradio had the same results from his G-Sync machine which kicked off this new avenue to explore.
Let's keep fingers crossed for the latter. Not holding my breath though... 
si_edgey Thanks for the explanation!
I might try Dell AW2721D (G-Sync Ultimate) –
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/77ac224f
However, I realized that it's 8 bits + FRC (10 bits). As I understand, FRC could also cause problems, so I wanted to ask if it's possible to disable FRC by just choosing 8 bits, or should I look for another G-Sync monitor, without FRC?
EDIT: In other forums I found that it can be disabled in Nvidia Control Panel. I will order this monitor in a couple of hours, so if you have any comments - let me know ASAP 
MPaz Good luck with it - there's no way to recommend anything at the moment as we're right at the beginning of this G-Sync adventure. Curious to hear how you get on with that. The only I'd say is that personally I'm yet to comfortably use a screen beyond 1080p FHD, so the QHD would put me off. That's purely anecdotal though, and I haven't tried many higher res screens yet.
Unfortunately, I found that many people are having issues with AW2721D monitor and displays with NanoIPS in general, so for now I'll probably look into other IPS / VA alternatives with G-Sync.
They say that the reason is:
"Colors are oversaturated because it's using a DCI-P3 color space instead of sRGB and the KSF red phosphor in the backlight is way too vibrant, the red color is the main cause of eye strain."
However, many people who decided to stick with NanoIPS monitors say that they got used to them in 1-2 weeks. So, I need to figure if I would be able to return it before ordering and then I might try it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/k0zuy2/aw2721d_eye_strain/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/jn7u7v/s2721dgf_causing_intense_eye_strain_and_weirdness/
EDIT: decided to avoid NanoIPS for now and ordered Asus ROG Swift PG259QN to try. I'll get it only in about 2 weeks, so will let you know as soon as I can.
@highradio
si_edgey Hey, so I just wanted to let you know that it's been around a week since I got the Asus PG259QNR monitor to test the Nvidia GPU + G-sync display theory. However, it still causes me the symptoms and I haven't found a way to make it better (still trying various things).
DisplayPort + RGB Full – seem to be the best, but it still causes eyestrain. I guess the monitor itself might cause it?
Using HDMI cable or ycbcr422 – seem to make it even worse - eye strain, immediately harder to focus, etc.
Maybe someone could suggest, what are the key things to try on this setup? (RTX 3090; Asus
PG259QNR; Win 10 20H2)
I would like only to ask those ones who are trying setups that bypass Intel HD - I know that it's obvious question, but I want to know, have you tried ditherig program on Intel HD? Is it not making things better for you on Intel HD? It's not perfect but for me this program gives a lot of relief.
si_edgey I did have a period where I started getting headaches again, and I noticed that dithering was periodically being enabled at seemingly random intervals, but probably because some request was made to the graphics drivers. I realised this was happening because my desktop background (colour #c84141) shows banding when everything is set up correctly, and no banding when my display is problematic for me
If I understand you correctly, you have a banding on a desktop wallpaper from one solid color c84141 ?
But how is it possible if only one color is used? ..or OS (Win 10) adds some post-processing/effects(??) that increases the number of color gradations?
Currently in an impasse if I want to buy a gaming laptop with TN panel (because this used to never give me issues).
Or if I should buy something like lenovo legion pro 5, it has dc dimming, gsync and AMD cpu.
Altough the AMD cpu certainly makes me a bit nervous because I haven't seen many ways to disable dithering, while with Intel i've only needed the ditherig.exe application.
Even though I haven't seen much improvement when using it or not.
@si_edgey does on your Omen machine the main display still run on the igpu?
I assume there is no real way to change this right?
Lauda89 because the dithering should not be linked to the CPU but instead with the GPU and monitor
Ah, this isn't actually the case in most laptops @Lauda89 - only laptops which have G-Sync capabilities where you can switch so that the display is connected directly to the dGPU,
In almost every other case, the frame buffer of the discrete GPU is passed to the integrated GPU to be displayed on the screen - what you're talking about is true for a desktop machine however.
@weasley - as you'll know, in this game it is literally impossible to make recommendations for other people - what works for one is by no means guaranteed to work for another as we're talking about a neurological condition here.
I would, however, be tempted to suggest a G-Sync laptop as there is at least some fleeting evidence that it works for some, myself included (although I only tried the one laptop).
weasley does on your Omen machine the main display still run on the igpu?
The reason I bought the Omen laptop is because you can switch it to run exclusively on the discrete GPU and bypass the Intel GPU altogether. There are more details on this in the original post. G-Sync laptops allow you to switch to the dGPU only, but at the sacrifice of any kind of power saving possibilities.
si_edgey Thanks for your response.
Since its incredibly hard to find a TN panel gaming laptop anyway, my best bet would be a g-sync laptop with discrete option, which if i'm correct the legion 5 pro does offer.
I won't have the money for it until next month but I will let everyone know how the experience is for me.
Hopefully giving everyone some feedback how to solve the issues for them as well or perhaps not fixed at all.
I should notify however that after my 8th visit to an optician they finally noticed that my right eye is a bit slower to respond than my left eye and slightly moves to the left, meaning I have "double vision" this is something I don't notice myself because my eyes work really hard to fix this, and is even very hard to detect for opticians (and other doctors) but could according to the optician, have a high chance of being the reason my eyes get fatiqued or even painful, I have to go to an actual eye doctor to get this fully checked out, after its all 100% correctly measured and figured out, all I would need is a prism in my glasses and the vision should be restored to normal and my eyes wouldn't have to work as hard.
I am not sure how rare this issue is to be honest since I just heard about it but perhaps could be something to look out after if you already tried everything to fix eye fatique/strain but nothing helps.
Just returned my Lenovo Legion 5 Pro. Not as bad as PWM, or previous laptops like Surface Laptop, but still the temporal dithering eye strain after a normal workday. Eyes very dry and irritated even in the next morning.
I received my Lenovo Legion 5 Pro yesterday, managed to get one sooner, because they are very quickly running out of stock.
My first experience is pretty good, my eyes got a little fatiqued but it was also late and I was tired myself so that could've been a factor.
Also usually in the morning my eyes are very tired, this time I was completely fine.
For me so far this seems like a huge upgrade.
weasley How's the situation after one week?
I hope weasley comes back to chime in.
For me it was clear as day that I could not use the Lenovo Legion 5 Pro as a work laptop. Maybe I could use it few hours here and there, but not on consecutive days. I would find it hard to believe that if weasley is sensitive to the similar flicker or has similar eye strain problem that I have, that he would be able to use it.
I've been testing it for awhile, at this point i'm not a 100% certain its the screens that cause my eye - fatique / strain.
Sometimes it looks like it does, and sometimes I can look at it just fine.
With that said, I do believe I have more rest on my eyes than my other laptop (y720 from lenovo).
I have made some changes however to what feels like makes it better, I keep playing with settings untill I feel like i've found the perfect setup.
Currently I have:
If anyone has other settings they use i'd love to hear ofcourse.
So as for laptops this has been the most comfortable so far, but like Maxx said, I'm not sure if i'm actually sensitive to screens like some of you are or if there are other factors at play here.
I've been testing the HP OMEN 15-ek0027nb for one week now.
As far as I can tell, it has the exact same specs as the HP Omen 15-ek0005na that @si_edgey has tested.
I almost can't believe it, but I'm experiencing no eyestrain after 3 hours of daily use. (on all other devices, I start noticing symptoms within 10 minutes). It's not quite like "looking at paper", but it's a game changer for me.
All I did was activate the 'discrete graphics' and install W10 v2004. But even more surprising: I updated to the latest Windows version yesterday and I'm still not experiencing any issues. Not sure if this will continue though; haven't been testing that long.
I'm a bit unsure about what to do now... I was planning to send this laptop back after testing. But it's the only
device that has worked for me in the last 2 years (excluding e-ink devices). I'm not sure whether I'll be able to find another laptop that also works for me, seeing that the Lenovo Legion 5 Pro isn't a unanimous success for people. I know, I should try for myself... But I'm just so excited to have something that works! I don't want to send it back 
PS: I don't want to give people false hope, but please give this laptop a try if you can. It seems like not many people have done so yet. It would be very useful to know if there's something special about this particular device...
PS2: si_edgey I would be very interested to know how things are going with the Omen-inspired system. If it works, I'd like to replicate it! (this thing is a bit noisy for my taste)
Bassiehetkoekje Dude, if this is the only device that has worked in the past 2 years, then this is the fish you have caught to eat.
Bassiehetkoekje Keep it and enjoy it!
Remember that the same SKU can be good or bad if you buy 10 times the same model. If you read the topic about MBP 16" on macroumors many users tried to buy the laptom many times until they find one device with no eye strain. So keep it
It would be interesting if we could identify the panel model; HWInfo shows something close to the actual thing. I saw on HP site that it is a 144Hz IPS one. I would be interested in it too, if I could use it on my Zbook
Bassiehetkoekje As far as I can tell, it has the exact same specs as the HP Omen 15-ek0005na that @si_edgey has tested.
I almost can't believe it, but I'm experiencing no eyestrain after 3 hours of daily use. (on all other devices, I start noticing symptoms within 10 minutes). It's not quite like "looking at paper", but it's a game changer for me.
Great news! If you're up to it maybe try prolonged use (9-5 workday) or even watching a movie/gaming on it, etc. Test it in every possible environment if you can.
I would love to buy this laptop for testing, unfortunately I don't have the funds at the moment, but it looks like a very capable spec and somewhat future-proofed for now. @si_edgey , are you still happy with the laptop?
I'd also be interested to know if you've tried using an external monitor(s) and if the comfort continues without using the laptop panel?
Bassiehetkoekje Congrats on finding a solution! I'm definitely going to try to test it out as soon as I can.
I'd really be interested in figuring out why this device seems to be better eye strain wise than others, is it just the discrete graphics mode?
Alyosha2001 It's a LG Philips LGD05C0. This is the classic a-Si type of panel not LTPS or IGZO.
Sunspark Thanks a lot! It's worth a try for me, although not cheap
bkdo I'm going to test it without the discrete graphics mode soon... Can't do it yet though; I re-tested my previous laptop yesterday (to make sure I'm not just suddenly more tolerant myself) and it punished my eyes.
Bassiehetkoekje I almost can't believe it, but I'm experiencing no eyestrain after 3 hours of daily use.
That is fantastic news @Bassiehetkoekje! Congrats - that's the same experience I had with the Omen, I was able to use it without any symptoms whatsoever.
Bassiehetkoekje I'm a bit unsure about what to do now... I was planning to send this laptop back after testing. But it's the only
device that has worked for me in the last 2 years (excluding e-ink devices). I'm not sure whether I'll be able to find another laptop that also works for me, seeing that the Lenovo Legion 5 Pro isn't a unanimous success for people. I know, I should try for myself... But I'm just so excited to have something that works! I don't want to send it back
I experienced this exact same issue. I loved the laptop, because I could use it without symptoms. But the lack of power saving options when using a discrete GPU, combined with the weight and noise from the machine, made it impractical for me to actually own.
Therefore I sent it back before the end of the 14 days - I have to say I was sad to see it go as I was enjoying gaming again for the first time in year (despite having a degree in games development).
However I also have my Dell XPS 15 (see original post) that I can work on all day comfortably, so that's the main thing. FWIW, if I didn't have another comfortable machine I would 100% have kept it. This answers your question too @diop.
Bassiehetkoekje I would be very interested to know how things are going with the Omen-inspired system. If it works, I'd like to replicate it! (this thing is a bit noisy for my taste)
I haven't actually got around to this - I spend long hours speccing it all up but I've never ordered it. I guess when I'm in a part of my life where I'm not experiencing chronic migraines, there's little incentive to 'rock the boat'.
So glad it works for you too - I love that this forum can make you feel a little less crazy, knowing that others have the same issue which is imperceptible to most.
Sunspark It's a LG Philips LGD05C0. This is the classic a-Si type of panel not LTPS or IGZO.
Very interesting! I currently use an a-Si screen, which is excelent for me, the AU B156HAN01.1, and I strongly recommend it to anyone to try! But as the new models use slimmer panels, I need to look for a new one, as the old one does not fit. I have tried severals without success for my new ZBook 15 G6 laptop. What do you think about the new LTPS and IGZO, how are the ergonomics?
I didn't know about theese technologies untill now, and I started researching. Maybe a thread about panel technologies or panel models should be usefull?
