AgentX20 Check the VBIOS using GPU-Z?
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/
If you could find a bad 970 (SOMEONE NEEDS TO DO THIS), it would be interesting to compare the VBIOS version of the "good 970" vs the "bad 970"? Then I have some more ideas on top of that.
Yeah, I'll check out the 980 BIOS versions and see if there's anything there.
OK - so I've now tried two Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX980 cards (both v1.0 hardware).
They differ on the memory front - one is Hynix and one Samsung. Both have very early bios versions.
Both give me low levels of eye strain, which is hugely annoying for this is supposedly the SAME chip as my 'works-great' 970 card.
I'll spend some time shortly, and push both cards up to the newest BIOS version in case that helps. Both updates report they "improve compatibility with some monitors". Quite what that does I dunno. But I suspect it's probably a bad thing for folks like us here. Still worth a crack.
Do they DEFINITELY give you eye strain? I find I tend to get a small amount of nocebo affect when I know something may cause me issues. It's part of why I don't like reading this site too much
person says x causes them issues
It immediately plays with my mind and I think it may be an issue for me
I bought a TV that is LED backlit a while back too and because I knew it was LED I would get low levels of strain/headache but it turns out that was just me imagining it and it's actually 100% fine. I think this is a big issue for all of us and makes things even harder to figure out.
Did you try some of the oldest drivers to see if they're fine and what OS are you using? (I assume you did)
980 was at the forefront though so maybe they started the dithering in that first and just implemented it on all the others later on.
Is there no way to contact Nvidia and get them to give us details on changes they have made to the output in recent years + when, where, and what?
Soreeyes Do they DEFINITELY give you eye strain? I find I tend to get a small amount of nocebo affect when I know something may cause me issues. It's part of why I don't like reading this site too much
I know what you mean, and I am conscious of it.
However, as I push through trying these devices (screens, video cards, TVs) out, it's the fact that I walk away feeling rotten/seasick (with symptoms lasting into the next day) that I know this is more than just paranoia. Believe me, there's nothing more I'd like than a modern high power GPU and big wide screen to run my flight and driving sims on!! And I live in fear of the day my 54" Plasma screen dies. I've even stockpiled a spare CCFL backlit 24" screen I picked up second-hand.
person says x causes them issues
It immediately plays with my mind and I think it may be an issue for me
That's because this is a very complex issue. There are so many different factors, possible causes and sensitivities at work here it can be both frustrating and depressing - with no obvious way to pin down the root cause.
I bought a TV that is LED backlit a while back too and because I knew it was LED I would get low levels of strain/headache but it turns out that was just me imagining it and it's actually 100% fine. I think this is a big issue for all of us and makes things even harder to figure out.
Good for you finding a screen that works for you. I have a 2013 15" MacBook Pro in front of me here that is PERFECT for me to use all day every day - and it's an IPS screen. The anti-glare coating is rubbing off so I could get the screen replaced but I'm worried what comes back won't work. I've used other laptops and other modern screens and more often than not they cause headaches. I've bought a 34" VA Samsung panel and an Acer 27" hi refresh low eye strain screen and had to on sell both as they just didn't work. Go back to my old Dell 24" CCFL screens and all is well. And I lose money almost every time I try these gadgets out so it's not like I'm not incentivised to want to like them.
Did you try some of the oldest drivers to see if they're fine and what OS are you using? (I assume you did)
No I've not tried older drivers. This same setup is perfect with a 970 card working GREAT. Drop the 980 in and the headaches start. I'm doubtful it's the drivers as this experience mirrors what I've seen with a host of more modern cards - 980Ti, 1070, 1080 etc.
980 was at the forefront though so maybe they started the dithering in that first and just implemented it on all the others later on.
It sure looks like it. I was just hopeful I could find something that works OK like my 970 and eek out a little more performance.
Is there no way to contact Nvidia and get them to give us details on changes they have made to the output in recent years + when, where, and what?
I think a few folks around here have tried this to no avail. We're too few in number to make them do anything much. And if there are lots of people in this situation (and I think there are based upon the Apple MacBook forum threads, and Apple iPhone X discussions) we're too dispersed due to the difficulties pinning down the root causes.
AgentX20
What driver version are you using for your 6950? I have a 7850 which I was able to use on my old machine with a quad core phenom II and windows 7. I recently put together a ryzen 7 build running windows 10 and the 7850 is causing eye strain. I tried installing drivers from 2013 (I can't remember the exact version) but no luck. I'm thinking maybe the windows 10 drivers are the issue. Unfortunately the Ryzen 7 is not compatible with windows 7 and my USB keyboard can't be found during install.
SeniorTaquito I was most recently (3-4 months ago) using the latest AMD drivers available for the card, on up-to-date Windows 10. I'm not home so cannot give you the specific version number but I never had ANY problems with the 6950 no matter the driver revision over many years.
I thought I would be fine with my 650 Ti Boost and K4000. But Keplar GPU has bandwidth limits and won't do 144Hz over at 2560 x 1440.
So I am acquiring a MSI Gaming 970 with BIOS 84.04.36.00.F1
My previous 970, which I stated for a long time was "good" but then I wasn't sure about in the end, and then stupidly sold, was BIOS 84.04.84.00.29.
I was thinking to try MSI 970 Golden Edition. Limited run edition near the end of 2014 which should have older BIOS one would think. This is different the other one I am acquiring.
degen 84.04.36.00.F1
From early 2015
In the GTX 970/980 thread, Harrison reports the same BIOS on his 970 as the card I was looking to buy, and found discomfort with it.
AgentX20 I wonder if the 980 is actually inherently bad or if the 980 you got had a higher VBIOS revision? I'm going to try and find a 980 with an earliest VBIOS as possible in 2014. The change happened late in 2014 / early in 2015 when the eye strain change took place in the VBIOS, so it would be very easy to buy both around the same time and have one have the bad VBIOS.
degen Go ahead - it'll be an interesting experiment. Me, I dunno what to report.
I've had a 980 and a 980ti and had strain with both.
I've had multiple G1 Gaming 970 cards, some good some not good. The good ones are all V1.0 hardware - and not 1.1. However, I've also got a 1.0 card that is bad - at least last time I tried it.
I have picked up one discernible difference however with the 1.0 hardware, that is - if I recall correctly the good ones (in my experience) all have hynix ram, and the bad ones have samsung ram. Why that makes a difference I've NO idea. There is a slight discernible difference in the cooling hardware (fins, heatsinks etc) that might suggest a different manufacturer... and hence maybe more differences, say in the output stage?
Anyway, the main hassle I had with any further analysis is that the BIOS files are now hard to get - in that Gigabyte doesn't list all the versions on their site any more, and it's hard knowing what's what on these other random collections elsewhere.
Guys, did we notice yet that last year someone found the working Windows registry key for Nvidia cards to enable and disable temporal dithering at will, and posted it in the official Nvidia forums?
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/discover/288245/is-it-possible-to-quot-port-quot-dithering-from-nvidia-x-server-to-geforce-driver-/#5934577
Sort by "oldest" and just after a few posts the member "Guzz" posts a list of all registry key states. Maybe you knew about it already and I somehow missed this.
"Additionally, WINDOWS has multiple abstraction layers before the output makes its way the screen. Color Profiles, color correction, gamma... all applied at the driver level, the card hardware level, the windows API level, the screen composition level... then again at the input and output phases of the display unit.
Windows 10 added ANOTHER layer, called "Composition spaces". The OS support for this began in the Anniversary Edition, which is why many of us find builds 1607+ to be unusable."
Can this be of any help?
https://github.com/Skymirrh/CompatibilityManager
or
Gurm What's the difference between screen composition and composition spaces?
Is it worth a shot putting a post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/ about our issue?