Lauda89 Sorry I missed your post. I tried Gram with external monitor and it's better but not perfect. What's interesting, I returned Gram after 45 days (we have some good return policies in Poland), tried lots of devices and bought Gram again a month ago and it gave me totally different sensation than for the first time 7 months ago. This time I "only" get some burning senation in my body, headaches afterwards and blurred vision. Anyway, it was way better than 7 months ago, but still uncomfortable so I returned it again.

    Lauda89 I also tried the same OS version as before and the same gpu driver version. No improvement.
    Before the clean install I never had problems with any Windows 10 version or GPU driver versions. That's very strange.

      Hi all,
      I’m new posting but been lurking for a month or so; came upon LED strain while looking for solutions/ reason for my headaches, migraines, eye pain, etc.

      I’m from and work in the UK; I’m 38, male and have been using computers, for work and recreation since my Atari ST without any issues what so ever until around 2012. I wear glasses for long distance for past 15 years (ish).

      Also to be clear and not to confuse with eye strain, tired eyes, etc.; pre 2012 I could look at any screen, projector, laptop, etc. with any colours, brightness, resolution, refresh rate, far or near the screen, for hours and hours without any issues at all. In fact I don’t think I ever had a headache before 2012.
      Some of the posts here describe my symptoms and how I feel exactly after being exposed to LEDs; this makes me feel it’s not something I’m creating in my own head which has been suggested by some medical professionals.

      I first noticed this “LED” issue around 2012 when I got a new monitor at work and at the time I couldn’t use it felt like my eyes were being squashed with a terrible headache. Had to swap back to my old CCFL backlit screen.

      Then I kinda forgot about it for a year or so until…

      I purchased a new “LED” TV; the first thing I watched was strictly come dancing (wife’s choice) for those that don’t know it’s a dance show with bright colours, fast movements and moving camerawork. Straight away I noticed my eyes feeling squashed I wanted to stop watching; but my wife told me I wasn’t use to the new screen and to give my eyes a chance “to get used to it” that was a mistake, I think I watched the whole programme (1 hour long) after I had a terrible migraine for 3 or 4 days all I could do was be in a dark room (I wasn’t fully recovered for over a week). Needless to say that TV went back and I managed to buy a CCFL backlit TV before they were discontinued.
      Also around that time I purchased a Samsung galaxy S3 with android 4.3 this is the phone I still use.
      I have tried many phone “upgrades” but any phone with a higher version of android (even a Samsung S3 LTE with android 4.4) gives me the same problem as the TV. Similar with iPhone tried loads of different models/ iOS all with similar results.
      Now more and more I’m noticing computers that I can currently use fine (zero issues) win7 with pre 2012 hardware/ firmware. Are starting to cause headaches which I think is software related for example latest adobe reader and MS office are unusable and as others have mentioned web browser Firefox, chrome and MS edge all have the same affect and are unusable for any browsing longer than 15 mins. (Any suggestions for a browser to try are welcome)
      atm windows 10 gives me the same problem; for example my old laptop was brought in 2008 and I’ve used it with windows XP and windows 7 absolutely fine; zero headaches, migraines, etc. I opted for the “free” windows 10 upgrade (few years back) and within 10 minutes headache/ migraine started. The latest Ubuntu and iOS are similar. (Any suggestions for an OS to try are welcome)
      I am noticing more shops with LED lighting, which also causes headaches. However some shops have LED lights but don’t give me a headache which is weird!!

      I have been to countless doctors/ opticians who all don’t see any problems; had a MRI scan and also tried visual stress clinic which were fine.

      The analogy one doctor gave me is the web cams are working but something is off with the computer. Doesn’t help but that’s all he had to offer.

      My current work around is AVOID LEDs and anything new. Use windows 7 until it’s unsupported with an old CCFL monitor.

        degenerate

        Your story is very similar to mine, I'm also from the UK and of a similar age.

        I am not one who gets headaches either but first started noticing issues when I bought my first iMac in 2015. I started having tight eyelids within 5 minutes, almost like bags under the eyes, and after prolonged use felt off-balance, zoned out, and sometimes would get headaches/light sensitivity. I'm usually okay after 24 hours if I avoid anything that can trigger symptoms.

        I have also found that no doctor knows about this issue, and being in the UK trying to claim ESA due to this condition seems like a long shot.

        I have also noticed recently, as others have too, that even on a 'good' machine, new software is causing issues. I can't use modern Media Players (Plex/Kodi/VLC) and emulators such as Retroarch used to be comfortable but now cause discomfort. Any current gen console is a no go for me, also Fire TV/Smart TV's are not possible either. Strangely I had an MRI that came back fine as well, and nothing abnormal has come back in any health tests I've had over the last 5 years.

        If you're desperate to uprgrade past W7, Windows 8.1 might be comfortable for you on your current tech if you use W7 drivers. As it still has support for a few more years, it is an option to consider.

            diop

            Hi,

            thanks for your comments.

            sorry for the slow reply; i had a weekend off screens.

            I have only tried windows 8.1 on a laptop with an LED screen; which was no good. but i can't find a official license anywhere. I'm going to try buying a second hand machine with win 8.1 and harvest to use on my "safe laptop".

            have you had any response about the ESA?

            what phone are you using? my samsung S3 is feeling its age with certain apps..

            im being brief because even writing this post on firefox i'm starting to feel discomfort.

              14 days later

              I am a 45 year old Male in the United States. I'm a software consultant/developer so I spend all day on computers for work and have for over 20 years. CRT monitors used to bother me but I could always fix it by increasing the refresh rate, which made them just fine to look at. I could always stare straight into any CCFL backlit LCD screen all day and not have any problems whatsoever. I started noticing problems as soon as the first LED backlights were used in computer monitors, I think my first exposure was a Lenovo Thinkpad sometime in 2006. At first, they were pretty easy to avoid but LED has become increasingly ubiquitous and is getting harder and harder to avoid.

              In 2016-17 I bought 4 BenQ RL2460 monitors and have had mostly great success with them ever since. 2 of them I connected to a laptop provided by my current employer. It was an HP ZBook 17 running Windows 7 and, hooked up to my BenQ monitors, felt almost as comfortable as old CCFL LCDs.

              The other 2 monitors I attached to a desktop machine that I built in 2017 with an Asus Rog Maximus Hero IX motherboard with Intel HD 630 Integrated Graphics. I always intended to add a graphics card but never got around to it. For most of the time I've had this machine it has been pretty good, though I always noticed it wasn't has comfortable as my Win7 machine next to it.

              My problems escalated when my work replaced my laptop with a new HP 850 G6 with Windows 10 v1909 and Intel HD 620 Integrated Graphics. I noticed right away that even my trusty BenQ monitors weren't helping with whatever was wrong with the video signal from this new machine. I now get constant strain and headaches from that machine and have a hard time focusing while looking at it. What's worse, is that my desktop machine is now also bothering me more and I can't tell if I messed it up while experimenting to try to figure out the new laptop or if the laptop has just made me more sensitive in general. I do notice that all screens and even, to a certain degree, all light seems to bother me more than it did before getting this new laptop.

              As for phones, I'm on my third Samsung Galaxy S3, which is mostly comfortable to look at, but every other phone I've tried since about 2012 gives me strain and headaches very quickly. I even recently tried the new 1plus with DC Dimming and it still bothered my eyes and gave me headaches. I might try an eink phone when my current GS3 dies.

              I have a hard time with modern vehicles since they all have exectronic screens and almost all of the automotive screens are too bright and make use of PWM. We recently bought a 2020 Kia Sedona for the family as it is the least aggravating screen of all the family vehicles we tried. As for my own, I drive a 2012 Tundra with no screen in it and will probably drive it until I die, or somebody finally thinks to solve this issue.

              I'm excited to find this forum and hope to give and get much help. I don't understand how Microsoft/Intel/AMD/NVidia can all be doing nothing (or so little) to help us out with this issue. I'm half considering applying to Microsoft's or Intel's graphics departments to get on the inside and start addressing the issue from there. My only trouble is, all my development experience is in higher level business applications and not in hardware drivers. Maybe I can get in anyway, who knows.

                jrhack

                Welcome, you are in good company here. Screen tolerance is quite complicated, which a multitude of factors. LCD inversion, dithering type & implementation, backlight flicker, blue light and unfortunately for a lot of us, age. The Intel graphics you have issues with uses spatial dithering, where the gpu applies static non-moving noise to the output to fake a higher colour gamut. Your Nvidia cards will be doing the same (did your zbook have a quadro?), however they use temporal dithering, where the static layer changes every frame. To add to this, all LCDs flicker at half their refresh rate using a process called inversion which prevents damage to the LCD crystals.

                I'd recommend trying a cheap, flicker free IPS monitor. IPS LCDs have slower response times than your TN BenQ which will take the edge off any flickering whether it is from inversion or temporal dithering. If you've used Nvidia graphics successfully in the past I'd also recommend trying an Nvidia card. I've sometimes found temporal dithering to make a monitor more comfortable.

                  Thanks guys! Just one question from these responses: Do many people with our symptoms tend to find IPS panels more comfortable than TN?

                    13 days later

                    jrhack It's the opposite for me. I do find TN (modern ones) slightly better than IPS, but what really makes a difference in my case is WVA panel.

                      7 days later

                      fgrise Quick update on my situation with the MacBook pro 16.
                      I finally stopped using it at the end of December and the strain/pain/... went away within a few days.
                      It's a work computer so I have to do something with it. This morning, I decided to test it one last time. Within seconds, I could feel like my eyes were being stretched open, like if someone was shoveling light in my brain.
                      Anyway, I am in the lucky position that I will be able to give it to another member of our group, and while I have been using my older Dell Precision 5520 without issues, I need to find something more powerful.
                      Now I am obviously worried of ordering any laptop through work as sending them back is a pain. Any suggestions? Would it be optimistic assuming that one of the most recent Dell XPS should work for me? I have never had a single issue with any laptop/monitor/phone, just the MacBook Pro.

                          25 days later
                          13 days later

                          Hello! I am a US-based web developer and graduate student, 43 years old. I started having difficulty with eye strain when I purchased a new, non-Retina MacBook Air in fall 2014. I had a 2011 MPB that I kept alive for years after that, eventually buying a second one and swapping out parts, because I could use that monitor without pain or fatigue. In researching the issue I found out that I have mild accommodative dysfunction and have done some vision therapy and chiropractic care for that, although at my last visit my optometrist said I no longer need prism (correction for the accommodative dysfunction). I do exercises every morning to manage that. I have used a variety of laptops since then, sometimes connected to a BenQ monitor, which helps some. But the best solution I had found was to purchase a new-in-box 2016 Retinal MacBook Pro in 2018 after that model was tested by Notebookcheck and showed no PWM. I have used that laptop since 2018 with Flux but no external monitor and have eye strain only when I use it for > 8 hrs a day and am not using dark themes and dark mode.

                          But... I needed to update my OS to Big Sur this week because a client has discovered a bug that only occurs in Safari 14.2.3+ (Safari is the new IE of web dev). After the update all of a sudden I have debilitating eye pain. It feels like some of the worst PWM laptop monitors I have used in the past, very sharp pulling pain around my eyes. I see some people noting above in this thread and others that there are software issues at play: this would be pretty strong evidence of that. This device has been tested to have no PWM, and I still see no PWM when I use my phone camera (though I can't be certain I'm testing correctly). Is this dithering? Is there any way to confirm?

                          Anyway... I'm going to try to downgrade the OS back to Catalina for now in the hopes that I can convert this torture device back into a work tool. I will also order a Dasung e-ink monitor. But I do need to do a lot of color work for my job. I'm new to this forum and I'm not sure where the good places are to look, but I have the following questions:

                          • Where can I find the best solutions others have documented here?
                          • Is purchasing a Windows device and disabling dithering still a good solution? I'm not wedded to MacOS.
                          • What about the Linux users saying they can turn off dithering? Has that borne out? I have used Ubuntu in the past.
                          • Also, what methods are people using to detect PWM and dithering? Or else how are folks purchasing devices with the specs they need? As I'm sure many of you have experienced, once I look at one bad device in a store, my eyes are shot for a few hours, and I wouldn't be able to spot a good one.

                          Update: I restored my 2016 MBP from an old Time Machine backup. Immediate and very clear difference. Very little eye strain—back to how it was before. It's an old backup, all the way back to Mojave, backup is from May 2020. But I will have to find some way to test and develop for updated browsers from this not-updated device. Lesson learned: despite the fact that this device has no measurable PWM, I am still potentially at the mercy of any Apple software update. TBH wondering whether I should start training for another career. It appears that the devices are just getting more and more aggressive on the eyes. If I can't keep up to date with displays, will I be able to work at all in 5 years?

                            lougro Since you have many options to consider I would recommend holding off on the Dasung until you really have tried everything. I’ll chime in later with some other thoughts about your situation but this is important.

                              a month later

                              Hi everyone!
                              My name is Bas. I'm 25 years old and I'm from Belgium.
                              I studied mechanical engineering and AI.

                              Before I go further I should say that I have health issues apart from screen intolerance, most notably chronic fatigue, which started 7 years ago. I won't go into that here though, although I believe all of my complaints are related.

                              Origin of the problem
                              I started having serious problems with electronic screens about 2 years ago. I hadn't switched to a new computer or anything, but it was a period of relatively heavy computer use. I pushed through for a few more days, hoping the complaints would fade again. However, soon not just my laptop was giving me trouble, but any electronic screen I came across (TV, phones, multimedia screen in the car... ).

                              So what do I actually feel when I look at screens?
                              Within minutes, I will start having an uncomfortable sensation of 'pressure' around my eyes. If I continue looking at the screen, this will get worse and after a while I'll get a headache as well. It lasts even after I stop looking at the screen. I'll also have trouble focusing on things (with my eyes). Sometimes it lasts for hours, sometimes for days. I've had 4 attacks of vertigo in the past (very dizzy, eyes panning uncontrollably). Each time, I was behind a computer when it happened.

                              What have I tried to solve it?

                              • I went to the optician to get my glasses' prescription checked (I've been wearing glasses since I was 7). He said the prescription was fine. Then I went to an ophthalmologist to get more thorough testing done. They said my prescription was actually too weak, and that the basic test hadn't been able to detect this because my eyes' lenses were 'stuck' in a compensatory state. Long story short, I got stronger glasses but they didn't help at all. My problems actually got worse, although I don't know if the glasses are to blame.

                              • The only device that I was still able to use without trouble was my trusted e-reader! (Onyx boox note). Desperate to find something that worked for me so I could somehow finish my studies, I decided to buy the Dasung paperlike (an e-ink screen). My complaints were significantly reduced, but I have to say it's not a silver bullet. First of all, I find I'm now straining due to the lack of contrast, as most software isn't designed for black-and-white viewing. Secondly, the screen is quite small, which makes UI items sometimes disappear or pop up in weird places. Finally, the screen is a bit glossy, which makes for harder viewing when there's a lot of ambient light. I can use this screen for about 2-8 hours a day, depending on the activity, but I'm less productive than I could be.

                              • I follow a very clean diet, manage my stress levels, meditate, etc. However, I was doing all these things even before I had the screen intolerance... So these are not going to solve the problem for me.

                              Closing words
                              I have to say it's really reassuring to find other people with similar issues (although I hope we'll all get rid of them), especially people who are as resourceful as you guys! It's really hard to find solutions to problems like this on your own. To be honest, I'd already given up on finding a 'normal' monitor/setup that works for me. But this forum is giving me new hope! Good luck everyone. I look forward to talking to you.

                                Bassiehetkoekje

                                Hi Bas,

                                We have some similarities in that I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue as well. Ultimately, my chronic fatigue had a dietary origin, which whilst not the sole cause of my screen issues, is a big aggravating factor. It might be worth looking at your diet, my biggest chronic fatigue trigger is actually cereal grains (All of them, not just wheat or other glutinous ones). The reason I bring that up, is even though cereal grains are considered healthy, they are not healthy for me. You could find that something you believe to be healthy is actually making things worse for you.

                                    Seagull thanks for the reply! And great to hear that you found a solution for your fatigue through diet. Have you completely recovered from it?

                                    I too have tried making changes (many changes!) to my diet throughout the years. I mostly give new changes a month and then revert back if they don't help but... I actually cut out all forms of grains about a year ago and felt a small improvement, so I've kept that in!

                                    Broadly speaking, my current diet contains:

                                    • no casein
                                    • no grains
                                    • no alcohol
                                    • no sugar (except the occasional berry here and there 😉 )
                                    • no high-histamine foods
                                    • no highly processed foods

                                    I can't say diet has made a big change for me, but I do consider diet to be very important for good health (i.e. a necessary, but not sufficient condition).

                                    Regarding

                                    You could find that something you believe to be healthy is actually making things worse for you

                                    I completely agree. I don't blindly follow "authority" or "common knowledge" anymore, as they have proven to be untrue for me on multiple occasions. I think the best we can do is try out things for ourselves in a systematic way.

                                      4 months later
                                      a month later

                                      lougro

                                      FWIW I noticed the same thing on my 2017 13 inch MacBook Pro (non Touch Bar). It was fine on all OS up to Big Sur. When I installed Big Sur I noticed eye strain. I downgraded, it went away.

                                      The weird thing is I have used Big Sur on other devices and its been more or less OK. So it has something to do with how Big Sur changed rendering on this particular chipset/display I think.

                                      I also noticed the same thing with Safari 14 on Mac OS. As long as I don't do the Safari 14 update on Catalina, its fine. If I install 14 it causes similar eye strain to Big Sur. I can use Safari 14 and 15 on my iPhone 6s no problem. Not sure what to make of it.

                                        7 days later

                                        @asus389

                                        Good to know that there are other devices you can use Big Sur on. And thanks for the confirmation that someone else has experienced this. I don't have an iOS device so can neither confirm nor deny the pattern with Safari 14 and 15.

                                        I really think the only solution is to allow users to disable temporal dithering easily, via the GUI, in any OS, advertise all use of PWM at any brightness level, document all temporal dithering used by any software, hardware, or firmware on product packaging and specifications. And make clear exactly which screen is used in a model, so that you can pick the screen in the model you buy. If all that was made clear for consumers we would have a much easier time sorting this stuff out.

                                        dev