EyeDiscomfortCertificate

Or dithering?

What are the differences on magnifier test, between pixel inversion and dithering?

Thx a lot

I tested on my camera and at low brightness I see vertical Lines.

5 days later

So, I ran around with a circular polarizer filter and examined a bunch of screens from both categories (both those that I can use for hours a day without a problem, and those that cause me painful eye strain and other symptoms with minimal use). Unfortunately, I found examples of each in all three categories, so I do NOT think polarization is my issue. Below are some examples. The items I list as "GOOD" below are screens I can use all day without an issue, the items I list as "BAD" cause my terrible eye strain with minimal use:

Horizontal polarization: Dell P2014HT 19.5" monitor (GOOD); Motorola One 5G Ace cell phone (GOOD); Samsung LED backlit TV Model UN55TU8000FXZA (GOOD); Sony X85K 43" TV (BAD)

45° polarization: Asus VS247H-P 24" monitor (GOOD); Asus VG248QG 24" gaming monitor (BAD)

Vertical polarization: 2022 Chromebook (GOOD); MSi Optix G273QPF 2022 27" gaming monitor (BAD); a couple other modern gaming monitors I tested (BAD)

    14 days later

    Just an update: I purchased the BenQ TK700STi gaming projector (a DLP 4K projector), which uses a lamp bulb as the light source. Since this has no LEDs involved, I figured it wouldn't be a problem- but I was definitely mistaken- this projector definitely caused my eye strain symptoms as well! Since this projector uses pixel shifting to accomplish 4K resolution (like almost all 4K projectors), and since it's DLP (flashing red/ blue/ green can be seen with eye movement), I am now back to strongly suspecting my main issue, like many of us here, is dithering or flickering. (I know PWM doesn't personally bother me as my main tolerable 10 year old monitor uses PWM, but some type of pixel dithering or perhaps even light source flicker itself must be my main problem!)

    So, despite my disappointment the BenQ TK700STi projector didn't work out, at least this is helping me narrow down the problem. Despite being so widely thwarted (I've tried something like 32 monitors now!), the hunt optimistically continues!

    For me the best monitor for my eyes is the HP X27i.

    Qhd, 27", 165hz, 4ms, flicker free!

    32? Dude, take a break from shopping for awhile. There is such a thing as looking too hard for problems.

      For a long time I dismissed temporal dithering or other pixel dithering as my issue. I dismissed it because:

      • The Asus VS247H-P monitor from 2013 that I can use all day without an issue is 6 bit + FRC = uses temporal dithering. It also uses PWM. (I’ve tested and confirmed the PWM but technically haven’t test-confirmed the TD.)

      • I have experienced discomfort with an offending monitor when it is on with black screen/ no signal to monitor, but backlight on.

      • I have experienced the same symptoms from an LED desk lamp!

      This led me to believe the LEDs themselves were somehow causing my eye strain.

      However, I am now reconsidering temporal dithering or other flicker as being the primary cause due to the following:

      • I tried the BenQ TK700STi DLP projector that uses a lamp (not LED!), and it definitely triggered the symptoms. It uses pixel shifting/ flickering (at 240 Hz) to achieve 4K resolution. Also as a DLP projector, I could also easily see the flashing red/ green/ blue “ghosts” of white objects as I moved my eyes quickly.

      • In offending monitors I’ve always noticed two subjective observations about the color:

        • I’ve noticed that the colors just look “not solid” to me. No matter how I tweak the color settings, I can’t get them to feel “solid.” (Meanwhile my 2013 Asus VS247H-P 6 bit + FRC monitor does NOT feel like this to me; the colors feel solid.)

        • No matter how I tweak the color settings in the offending monitors, the discomfort persists: however, the “quality” of the feeling/ discomfort does change with color settings change. This implies to me that the monitor may be implementing different dithering with the color settings changes.

      Has temporal dithering changed over time? Is there some other kind of flicker present in almost all modern monitors and TVs, that is not present in most phones and handheld devices?

      Just thinking out loud in case anyone has any input. I very much appreciate all ideas!

      It is not only the monitor that causes eye strain, it is the GPU as well. If I hookup my monitor directly on my GPU, I get bloodshot eyes, if I hook it up to the motherboard at the expense of some GPU power loss, I don't get bloodshot eyes. Go figure…

        brjdenis For my experience nausea is not related to GPU but to monitor.

        I had a Win 10 syatem, Ryzen 3600 + 2070s and Benq ex2780q. After 30.minutes in gaming I had Nausea.

        Now i changed monitor, and no more nausea. Windows version and drivers are the same.

        5 days later

        Have you tried setting Dynamic Range to Limited? Nvidia Control Panel>Change Resolution>Use NVIDIA color settings> Output dynamic range > Limited

        (Need to change this setting also on the monitor OSD if it's avaliable so they both match)

        It may sacrifice some color quality but you are also limiting the intensity of brightest & darkest shades.

        "Full Range" greyscale, the darkest color is 0 (0,0,0 R,G,B) and brightest is 255 (255,255,255 R,G,B):

        Limited Range would narrow this to 16 (16,16,16 R.G,B) and 235 (235,235,235 R,G,B) limiting how bright the colors can be displayed through the pixels independently of backlight brightness.

        This improved for me the effect of perceiving the colors in a more solid state rather than feeling like the image is glowing.

          boomhedshot

          I tried this- it didn't help, but thank you so much for the suggestion!

          I tried the HP X27i recommended by Aquila, but unfortunately it did NOT work for me- I could tell within 10 seconds it was causing that burning sensation in my retinas! I did play around with all the settings- it's a great monitor and I could get the color very stable looking. But after playing around for only 10 minutes I was relieved to put it back in the box.

            Gemsand I'm so sorry tò hear this. Did you try another source ex mediaplayer, Fire Stick, box Android?

              Gemsand 45° polarization: Asus VS247H-P 24" monitor (GOOD)

              Did you have any experience on gaming with this monitor? Do you recommend it for gaming without eye strain?

                Aquila The input doesn't make a difference for me, unfortunately!

                Fakir35 In my own case I can use the Asus VS247H-P 24" monitor all day without strain, it is my main monitor that I'm using right now and have been using for the past 10 years. Three points to consider though: (1.) It is 6 bit + FRC (FRC = temporal dithering!- gasp!); (2.) I've tested it myself and it does use Pulse Width Modulation to control brightness (PWM- gasp!); and (3.) It simply doesn't have gaming monitors specs- it's a basic 60 Hz 24"TN panel with no VRR. That being said, it functions just fine, the response time is probably 1-2 ms. Interestingly, the fact that this monitor uses a form of temporal dithering and PWM has always made me discount flicker as being my main issue, however, after having a painful recent experience with a 4k pixel-shifting DLP projector that uses a lamp (no LEDs at all!) but does flicker, I'm wondering if newer LED backlights have some other kind of inherent imperceptible flicker. Also I've experienced an LED desk lamp that caused the same exact symptoms- so I'm wondering if maybe the LEDs themselves now pulse in some way that they didn't use to.

                  Gemsand

                  Thank you for your replies sir. But problem is monitor model year is too old (2013 i guess) and it's hard to find. Even as second hand products at least in Turkey. Not only for Asus VS247H-P 24 also other monitors that you recommend. In any case if you suggest modern monitor which brand year is newest and its ok for eye health in case of looking long hours, i will consider. However i dont read positive comments about modern eye care monitors. So i am in deepest suspicious about them.

                  19 days later

                  @Gemsand

                  Have you tried also Asus VP228DE? I think it is same series with VS247HP? I intend to order it

                    Greetings. I ran into this problem not too long ago and was discouraged.

                    New(and many old) monitors,TVs,phones,video cards cause me a lot of pressure and eye strain. Later I bought myself some LED lamps for my desktop and found that they all cause the same symptoms! What the hell is going on

                      Here are monitors that cause absolutely no discomfort -

                      Aoc I2369vm (2013, AH-IPS, 6bit+frc)

                      Aoc 24p2q (2020, IPS, 8bit)

                        Fakir35 I haven't tried the Asus VP228DE- thanks for the suggestion.

                        Luminous Yeah I experience the symptoms with a LED desk lamp as well! Indeed, what the heck is going on. Thank you for the suggestion on the two AOC monitors you can tolerate! If you ever find additional tolerable monitors please post (and I'll do the same).

                        22 days later
                        dev