Seagull

To be honest with you, I am coming closer and closer to agreeing with you too.

For me, after witnessing the strain from the 970 only 2 other theories remain:

1- The newer Nvidia drivers are making the cards dither. I will be able to tell this in a few days, if the 1030 strains me too with this new driver.

2- As I said in the previous post, maybe once you experience a very low PWM or really bad dithering or maybe by simply becoming too aware of their presence your brain can no longer unsee them, and it starts to focus on them no matter what, causing you unbearable strain. If this is true, it is pretty scary and could mean it might be irreversible.

If these two theories of mine get thrown out of the window, honestly, only your explanation could be true.

I have to admit, since the pandemic, I barely go out of the house ever. So it could not only be the fact that we have come to age and our brains are struggling to adapt, but it could be that too much focus on the screen and being in a small room for so long with the same life day after day has intensified my focus on these screens.

Since as long as I remember, I got pretty bad eye-aches and headaches from bad screens. If my friends came over to play Fifa after 2 or 3 days of playing, I would get such massive eye strain and headaches that I would have to go in the room and tie my head up and sleep for a few hours to be able to play again. But that eye-ache and headache never came with burning and dull eyes, nauseous feelings, such horrible depression. So there is definitely something wrong with these devices, and we definitely aren't just crazy.

I, too, have been trying to adapt myself with my Note 5 specially by trying to differ my focus from locking on the screen, I also try to go out of the house into our front yard and have my gaze on farther distances, do more exercises and have been trying to get out of my room, head and the screens in front of me more often in hopes of being able to adapt again.

There's literally not a single new device that not making use of these techs. Our options are getting thinner and thinner.

I'm gonna have my mom also try and contact a doctor in our capital city and see if maybe he can come up with any better explanations. The doctors here have literally never even heard about such things. It's like alien language to them. I'm wondering if it could have anything to do with having high blood pressure.

    CepheiHR8938 I also want to add that I do not believe in the strong effect of dithering on eye strain, all my experiments prove otherwise. That it has almost no effect. There is some flickering going on here. And the flicker is not the backlight, but the rendering.

    BloodyHell619

    You need to be careful with thinking that you can't use anymore hardwares that you used to be able to use. Be aware that the software component plays a huge role, just a simple os update or whatever update on your galaxy note 5 may have made it unusable. I had 2 cases where updates made my phones unusable.

    I think you would be perfectly fine if you could use your hardware/software exactly as they were. But as you can see, software constantly updates and it's super hard to get the exact state you had.

    I have my laptop right now, and according to the nvidia driver I use, I get differently bad symptoms. 3 drivers, 3 symptoms or different sensations. From acceptable to untolerable according to the driver.

    There is another thread where someone couldn't use his setup anymore. It turned out it was just a Google Chrome update.
    Even websites have their own way of image processing. Look at youtube for example and see how more saturated it is. I remember youtube changed for me like some months ago. See the difference between an image looked on bing or on google.
    Open a white page (for ex google home page) in microsoft edge, google chrome, and firefox, place them side by side and observe by yourself the difference in white tone, the reds and so on.

      BloodyHell619 2- As I said in the previous post, maybe once you experience a very low PWM or really bad dithering or maybe by simply becoming too aware of their presence your brain can no longer unsee them, and it starts to focus on them no matter what, causing you unbearable strain. If this is true, it is pretty scary and could mean it might be irreversible.

      But why does the nvidia 1030 give you no eye strain at all ? If you can use some setups but can't use others, it means there is also something specific to the setups orelse you wouldn't be able to use any setup.

      I would definitely start with the motherboard BIOS. Do you know which one was there previously? Would you be able to downgrade it?

        Liberator005 You need to be careful with thinking that you can't use anymore hardwares that you used to be able to use. Be aware that the software component plays a huge role, just a simple os update or whatever update on your galaxy note 5 may have made it unusable. I had 2 cases where updates made my phones unusable.

        You are right. Even though new updates haven't come for the Galaxy Note 5 in years but still it's mainboard has been completely replaced, there definitely is gonna be at least a slight difference in the frequency of the flicker from the previous board. There is no way the two would be a perfect match. There's definitely a margin of error. Maybe that little off is making it hard for my eyes to adapt.

        machala I would definitely start with the motherboard BIOS. Do you know which one was there previously? Would you be able to downgrade it?

        I'd have to check. The strain is just so bad, It takes at least a few days for me to even be willing to give things another shot. I'm literally starting to hate video games cause of all the eye strain I've encountered. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if it might be due to the newer nvidia driver I installed. Probably after that, I might give the BIOS a shot.

          machala Are you seeing the issue while in BIOS as well?

          I forgot to test that. Man, dithering strain is so goddamn lingering. 3 days of doing almost nothing but sleeping and my eyes still feel dull as hell. The pain is going all the way into my teeth and making me wanna pull them off one by one. I am starting to freak and am afraid I might have even messed up my GT 1030 with the driver updates. Gosh, I hope this card doesn't start giving me strains, and it's just the strain from the 970 that is still lingering.

          In the meantime, check this amazing response from Microsoft support …. Like WTF :I

            BloodyHell619

            Looks a bit like ChatGPT wrote that.

            The best advice I can give you for recovery: exercise, avoid any form of drugs, some form of fasting if you have any experience in it. All things that increase the growth and repair of brain cells - works for my migraines and eyestrain, but your mileage may vary.

              BloodyHell619 I'd have to check. The strain is just so bad, It takes at least a few days for me to even be willing to give things another shot. I'm literally starting to hate video games cause of all the eye strain I've encountered. Right now, I'm trying to figure out if it might be due to the newer nvidia driver I installed. Probably after that, I might give the BIOS a shot.

              Same, I've been using my phone for 3 days and I literally freak out at the idea of opening my laptop. Those things are serious.

              99% of strain is how Windows draws the frames on your screen.

              Don't look for the problem in the card or the drivers or your monitor!

              Just try different versions of Windows until you hit your sweet spot. Mine was Win11 22H2 and I'm sticking to it forever!

                BloodyHell619

                Seagull

                I totally disagree with Seagull here that this is like a ChatGPT response, I am fairly confident ChatGPT would provide a much more relevant answer than that.

                But I am not surprised, most people even on what should be very specialized and technical positions know nothing about how even basic technologies work. Last time I for instance found that a technician at Eizo in my country, guy that specializes in evaluating LCD monitors (and doing the job for 10+ years per his words) had no clue whatsoever what pixel inversion is.

                With this state of things when people that should know actually know nothing and our lives are in the hands of a few engineers (those that really know) that are placed behind several layers of firewalls it is hard to believe anything will ever change.

                  I don't know if what I am seeing was there before, if I had already noticed it before, I don't even know if I should mention this because I am really starting to think that focusing too much on the screen and trying to figure what is truly happening can really make you see things that you can no longer unsee and which will start to strain your eyes.

                  All in all what I have been experiencing so far is really solidifying my theory:

                  I think simply looking at a screen with very bad PWM or Dithering is gonna make your eyes notice them more, and then you can no longer unsee them. So I would advise if a screen is straining you, and you have a working alternative neither try to get use to the bad screen or pay too much attention to it trying to figure out the problem. Your eyes might become even more sensitive to the problem, or they might witness some other problem, and you might not be able to unsee it any more. Don't try to get use to it. Not only will you not be able to, but you might not be able to use the screens that you easily could have before either. Just quickly get rid of it.

                  I was reading more about pixel inversion and this is exactly what the site that had a test for it said too. Here's the exact lines:

                  "Avoid doing these tests if you’re sensitive to flicker.

                  Also – sometimes, ignorance is bliss. If you don’t notice any interlacing artifacts, these tests may point them out, and you might start noticing them in everyday use.

                  So, unless you’re just testing out a monitor or suspect that your monitor has too strong pixel walk that warrants an RMA, doing these tests may not be necessary."

                  In the past few days I have tried to leave home a lot more, and I think it massively helps. Having your brain have other thing to focus on is at least not gonna let the screens that work for you stop working for you.

                  If you think my theory might be true, and you have had the experience of going back to devices that used to work for you and not being able to use them, maybe don't read this part of my post!

                  Looking really close at my two LCD monitors, I can see all the pixels flicker, like some movie grain. I recall seeing this exact same thing on my moms Tab S6 Lite, which strained my eyes like crazy. It's like static noise on old TVs, every single pixel is doing it no matter what colour it's showing.

                  Could this be the source of eye strain? Could this even be dithering? machala Or probably it is bad pixel inversion? I do not dare to take the pixel inversion test to be sure. But I wonder if any of you have seen these too.

                  I can not see this on my only none-straining LCD smartphone, at least from the same distance I look at it as my monitors, and I don't dare look any closer because it is literally the only screen now that doesn't give me eye strain. I still am not fully comfortable with my gt 1030 card which never gave me eye strain after I put back in my GTX 970 which was wrecking my eyes. I don't know if it's still the lingering strain, or if something has really gotten messed up irreversibly simply by putting that card in. I have tried system restore, removing drivers and reinstalling them disabling dithering through any app there possibly is, but I am still feeling bad. Sadly I have been forced to constantly use my Galaxy Note 5 for many hours, so I think the pain is due to that because It is getting less and less though, and I hope it fades.

                  Oshim 99% of strain is how Windows draws the frames on your screen.

                  Don't look for the problem in the card or the drivers or your monitor!

                  Just try different versions of Windows until you hit your sweet spot. Mine was Win11 22H2 and I'm sticking to it forever!

                  I doubt that's the problem in my case. I have been using this Windows version with absolutely no strain until I put that wrecked GTX 970 in. It could be that each card might work better with a specific Windows version, but I literally gave up. Right now, I simply wanna be able to use my 1030 with no strain like before.

                    BloodyHell619

                    Hi, dithering, signal fading, "incompatible" video timings or pixel inversion… or all of it at once in different combinations.

                    Did you have a chance to read this post of mine?

                    https://ledstrain.org/d/2211-issues-with-monitors-might-be-caused-by-pixel-inversion

                    And this experience that goes with it:

                    https://ledstrain.org/d/2131-potential-correlation-between-video-timings-and-flicker/5

                    What is definitely interesting here is the impact of video timings - that different timing algorithms and settings have clear impact on picture stability. Although I wasm't able to "fix" my setup with different timings, others were and I can definitely confirm with several PCs and laptops that changing video timings provides totally different picture stability sensations. And this is no impression, I am sure it is different I can see it. I'd love to have a graphics card or monitor engineer explain here why this is happening as video timings - as someone quite correctly said - were primarily meant to control picture on old CRTs and are basically a remnant from that time.

                      machala

                      I just read that. Very interesting and rather scary. Right now I don't even want to start thinking that that might be the issue, I feel my eyes are just seeing too much all ready. It seems pretty terrifying to mess with. And my GT 1030 was absolutely strainless before I paired it with the 970 I hope I haven't done something irreversible, caused damage on a hardware level, something like what happened to your screen after you played that old game.

                      I am utterly devastated right now, the GT 1030 that I have been using with not a single bit of eye strain before putting the 970 in is straining me now. I really don't know what the god-damn that GTX 970 did, but something's wrong. It's been a week now that I have pulled it out, and I am still feeling the burning sensation in my eyes flickering eyelids and neckpain the exact signs I get from dithering screens. I tried rolling back the Nvidia driver, I tried uninstalling all the drivers with DDU. In the process, I actually found out that god-damn windows keeps installing the latest driver you ever install over what ever older driver you install even when you delete it. Then I saw an option in DDU that prevented it from doing so, but it still hasn't made the strain go away. I tried every app there was that disables dithering, but still the strain is there. I'm just devastated. I am probably going to delete all driver, then upgrade to Windows 11 to see if it helps. If not, I might have to either stick an even older card in my pc or restore a pretty old windows image I have.

                      It's almost like the cards that dither have a dithering virus that infects every other card you put in their place. :"{

                        machala I think they are both TN LCDs, also very old. Been using them for over 15 years.

                        An LG Flatron and a Samsung SyncMaster.

                        BloodyHell619 what if the 970 has made you sensitive to the 1030's output (which hasn't changed)? If that's the case just giving your eyes/nervous system a few days break from screens, and then going back to the 1030 might help.

                        4 days later

                        Man, this is really messed up. The 1030 is really straining me. I literally cannot believe this. It's not making it unusable, but it's been making it really hard for me to use.

                        @Deepdeep There's no way the strain from the 970 could have lingered this long. My eyes actually feel relived now when I look at my Galaxy Note 5 from my monitor!

                        • I tried downloading the latest versions of Driver uninstaller to fully wipe the NVIDIA driver.
                        • Tried installing the oldest possible drivers.
                        • I even paired the card with an older Radeon card that I had, hoping it would undo what ever the GTX 970 did.
                        • I upgraded to Windows 11. No use! It neither reduced the pain nor worsened it, so I can say for sure that at least in my case it has nothing to do with windows.
                        • (One thing I did notice is that Windows update now updates your VGA driver too. That might be the reason upgrading windows might be causing strain)
                        • I tried disabling dithering with the colour control app.
                        • Tried changing my monitor's colour formats to all modes RGB, limited, full …..
                        • Tried installing older versions of my CPU chipset driver
                        • Tried clearing my CMOS

                        nothing is working ……

                        I've scanned this thread and hopefully I can add some perspective as I own multiple 970 cards and have owned more in the search for a good config. I've also been through the whole good setup gone bad multiple times over the years.

                        Once upon a time I had Windows 10 1909 running super sweetly with a Gigabyte G1 Gaming 970 card with no eye strain at all (z97 mobo and 4790K cpu). It was great. But then my motherboard blew up - I think taken out by my SSD, which died at the same time.

                        So, I bought a new motherboard, CPU (10700K) and SSD. Nothing I did would get me a working setup. They all produced eye strain, even using Win 10 1909 and the same video card, hard drives, cables, screen etc. And certainly none of the newer builds of Windows worked. I knew of discussion here about using older WIn 10 builds and none of them worked either. Conclusion - the motherboard was doing something nefarious. On top of this I suspect Microsoft had added something new to the 1909 build.

                        (Intererstingly, my son is now using that CPU & motherboard with another G1 Gamng 970 card and it's runs the latest Win 10 build without too much eye-strain. But I guess if it was my main then perhaps I might change my tune).

                        I tried other 970 cards that I knew were 'good' with this setup and still no joy.

                        So I replaced the blown up motherboard with something fairly similar (same z97 chipset, albeit a different manufacturer) to resurrect my old 4790K CPU. Win 10 1909 still wouldn't work nor did any of the newer builds available at the time, all causing lots of eye strain… but lo and behold Win 10 1511 worked! No eye strain at all.

                        Since then I've been happily running this old build, locked down not to update, without too many problems. My advice to you is go back to an older build of Windows 10 like 1511 or maybe 1607 and start from there.

                        Some additional notes:

                        • Most Unity based games cause eye strain. Don't use anything like that for testing.
                        • Some browser versions can also cause eye strain. Thankfully, Edge seems pretty good. Start with that, not Chrome.
                        • Subsequently, due to positive comments in this forum about certain Win 10 releases, I have tried newer builds of Windows 10 but none that I've tried have provided a good initial experience. (Part of this is that Win 10 1511 can't run a newer .Net version that some apps are now asking for).
                        • I have had experience of good 970s going 'bad' and I subscribe to the theory that some config that impacts us can be written to the card (by video drivers?), changing its behaviour fundamentally. I have ultimately overcome this by going back to an old Windows build.
                        • I run DVI (card output) to HDMI to a VGA adaptor to the screen. This doesn't really do much but I figure even if it softens the image anything that softens the digital 'nastiness' could be a good things.
                        • You can have a good working setup and try a different screen and it's eye strain city.

                        I know for a fact, having bought and sold multiple of these video cards that they're not all the same. Of the dozen or so G1 Gaming 970 cards I've owned:

                        • V1.1 hardware always causes me eye strain, and these get on-sold.
                        • V1.0 hardware is a lottery - Hynix RAM is A-OK, and Samsung RAM is bad (they get sold too).

                        The VBIOS version doesn't seem to make any difference that I've been able to detect, and these days it's super hard to get specific versions. I'll add to this that I've tried and failed with 980, 980ti, 1070, 1080, 1080ti, 2080ti, Vega 64 graphics cards with every one of them causing eye strain. All were bought and resold, sadly!

                        Don't give up, just take everything back to basics. And if you get something that works. Make a good backup!

                          dev