DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs can you reupload them?
which one?
DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs can you reupload them?
which one?
All monitors were in 8bit 60hz mode with cleared EDID settings in z390 motherboard + rtx 3080 graphic card, video is 4k60p
!!! you need to x8 slowdown to see FRC difference !!!
AOC Q27B3MA - 2k60hz
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/g6vi/uG9gdWZ3r
benq bl2420z - FHD 60hz ( AUO m238hvn01.0 )
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/nDaD/yy71Zr9kK
xiaomi mi 27 2k 165hz ( AUO M270DAN02.B )
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/9w6Q/y7qSgnnvm
philips 275V8LA - 2k60hz ( TPM270WQ1-SG1G012 )
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/cqgm/xgmLS7Sgg
=======================================================
Upd:
And here is how simple dithering looks ( z690 + iGPU + benq in 6-bit mode )
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/anaU/kahSkroTa
And how classic 4 pattern FRC dithering look ( z690 + iGPU + benq in 8-bit mode )
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/H3BJ/7KjVMiJcA
=======================================================
Upd2:
3 video cards in z390d + benq 8-bit
The gtx1060 has the most visible FRC patterns in terms of sharpness, the rtx2/3 gen have stronger dithering (hides the FRC patterns) and overall image "blurriness"
6bit + FRC = 8 bit = 4 repeating pattern frames to get extra 2 bit color data
6bit + Hi-FRC = 10 bit = 8 repeating pattern frames to get extra 4 bit color data
Are you sure this is the case? As far as I've read up:
6bit + FRC = 16.2m
6bit + HiFRC = 16.7m
As per http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php at least.
At 60hz Hi-FRC very noticable, eye got strain, thats why manufactures increase framerate upto 120+hz to smooth effect. The question is: manufactures present 120hz as good for games and eyes, but can they "mask" false 8 frames?
At 120hz panel you get only 120/8 = 15 real frames, all others are "flickers"
At 144hz panel you get 144/8 = 18 real frames
Can you quote the source? I'm confused what you mean by this.
qb74 Are you sure this is the case? As far as I've read up:
Yes
Moreover, I suppose most of 8/10bit monitors are 6bit+Hi-FRC, the bad is my camera is only 60p so I cant check monitor's FRC in 120hz mode to find 8 "blended" frames. On my benq I detected 4 FRC pattern frames, in xiaomi its hard to detect FRC patterns due it has A-FRC (not classical FRC patterns)
z690 + iGPU 6-bit vs 8-bit + benq
At 6-bit no FRC at all, only monitor's dithering
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/UhWz/kYGUfMPvr
Very interesting, I cant get same no FRC image when using gtx1060/rtx2070s/rtx3080 cards even forcing monitor to 6-bit. I get banding at wallpaper, but FRC still there with dGPU
I mean, this FRC patterns are always in 6 or 8 bit monitor mode -> https://cloud.mail.ru/public/dMBD/ZU1XN4T7e
I was not able to spot any flicker happening on the videos you've recorded.
It's a bit hard to capture this without a oscilloscope + probe, cameras do not suffice for this matter sadly.
qb74 I was not able to spot any flicker happening on the videos you've recorded.
Talking this video -> https://cloud.mail.ru/public/UhWz/kYGUfMPvr
You need to download video, then play video frame by frame - in bottom (8-bit label) part of the video you will see 4 FRC repeating patterns (vertical, horisontal, vertical, smooth) looking at taskbar, to the left position of the "up arrow" symbol.
In 6-bit there is no patterns, only monitor's dithering random noise on taksbar visible.
In 8-bit case, on the dithering noise layer you seen in 6-bit part, monitor add FRC layer with 4 patterns ( through the FRC patterns you can notice same 6-bit dithering noise structure )
simplex
Mate, do you not understand that my panel can dither and we cannot have the same experience as what you view IRL?
Oscilloscope + (fast) light probe is the objective way to measure this, not some random videos.
ensete
There is a "safe" gudeline I'd say for monitors.
But, ppl here just need to start evaluating biological factors instead though instead of blaming everything on the monitor.
A safe monitor consists of:
There is a gray area however, which is very individual + not a lot of info on this.
People here use extremely archaic & ridiculous panels imo.
There are outside factors such as:
qb74 not some random videos.
Main issue of modern monitors not in dithering or FRC, issue is vcom adjustment which prevent pixel sticking
Looking in my vids you will see different vcom in each monitor, you dont need microscope to record vcom: 60hz monitor, 60p camera and good zoom is enough ( the main rule - camera should gives you high res picture and much more FPS record than monitor did, better to sync record speed )
There are many influencing factors that can be listed, but to check each of them, you need to take measurements.
I believe that monitor problems can be reduced by following these rules:
1) No more than 60/75Hz (I saw a hard vcom in all high-frame rate monitors)
2) Without HDR and excessive brightness (<= 250 nits)
3) Year of manufacture 2014 ... 2020
4) IPS or VA panel does not matter
5) wled backlight without quantum and other technologies of extended coverage, giving sRGB coverage of about 90 ... 100%
6) Monitor coating - very light matte (hard-matte blurs the structure of RGB subpixels and strains the eyes)
7) Almost all monitors are now without low-frequency PWM (> 10 kHz)
8) Almost all monitors have a blue peak at 446 ... 460 nm, this is safe
9) BASIC color temperature - around 6500k, when looking at the monitor there should be no be cold shades
10) DP or HDMI port - does not matter. Both can dither, depending on the EDID settings
Interesting discussion here. This link just for learning about VCOM:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-vgh-vgl-vcom-its-characteristics-lcm-display-rachel-li-osh8c
photon78s Interesting discussion here. This link just for learning about VCOM:
You mean this patterns are not vcom? Okay, its better to name it "vcom mechanism" or Interlace pattern artifacts which used in pcmonitors reviews
I measured today aoc 24b1h, dexp df24n3, Xiaomi Mi Desktop Monitor 1С. All of them have 2-step pixel twinkling ( left - right ).
Acer 240y dont have this, its vcom similar to my benq ( 4-step pixel twinkling, twice low frequency compared to new monitors ). I got acer for testing
Nope. No assumptions of anything. Just trying to figure this concept out. I some point maybe you could add vcom to this forum's wiki or the glossary section. Btw, is your username "simplex" refering to simplex noise?
simplex from the word simple - simpler, simplification of the complex
ok I will add after done some tests. I found 2 main vcom patterns - horizontal ( left to right ) and chess pattern
Here is some results I got:
When I set my 165hz xiaomi panel up to 45hz ( 30…45 ), no green vcom columns anymore and you can use monitor and feel only grapfic card + windows dithering, no "dithering" added by monitor
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/frSj/jFbYfBr1w
When I set to 46hz or more (50, 60, 100, 120, 165) - vcom add its bars and eye-nerve got strain after 20+ minutes
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/WjBP/ga9DxqJGa
p.s. all vids slowed down 4 times. There is static image recorded
p.p.s. all modern monitors I tested have same vertical bars or another pixel sticking protection. I think pair-based vcom (first frame: left green pixel shine and right is closed, second frame: left is closed and right is shine) overload eye-nerve. My old-safe benq dont have pair vcom, it have 4-step
In engineer menu I found no options regarding vcom adjustments. I think it controlled with extra chip in panel board scheme, or it is t-con config
Here is vcom details for high-fps panels -> https://www.powersystemsdesign.com/articles/balancing-image-quality-and-power-use/22/10024
My new findings: