Hey guys, I've just received a new monitor to test Dell U4025QW. It's a 40'' 5K display 8bit + FRC. Its not using mini-LED, looks like it's a dc-dimming mostly. 8bit + FRC tho. Going to do some tests, hopefully betterdisplay will help me with FRC. Let me know if you would like me to test anything specific.
Decent 4k/5k/6k monitors. What options are there?
I can't find any flicker yet. I will post results today/tomorrow. Initial impression is interesting, 8bit forced with BetterDisplay, but I still feel some weird tension in my back of the head, and after an hour of using this monitor I feel like my eyes are tired. I didn't test this monitor with my microscope yet. But I want to mention how good this monitor is Colors are fantastic, 120hz, coding and color grading is amazing. Text is crisp. Tried to play few games and its really good, well you can't play CSGO on pro level haha, but its good if you want to spent some time with your friends and also you need a pretty good PC for it.
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Quick update on Dell U4025QW connected with:
- Macbook Pro M3: At first it felt fine, but after a while it started to give an eye strain. Tried with BetterDisplay 8/10bit. Nothing helps.
- Macbook 2019 Intel: I tried in the evening next day after MBP M3 and it was totally fine, not eye strain at all. But next day it started to give me slight eye strain and then headaches. Tried with BetterDisplay 8/10bit, nothing changed. Tried to disable font smooth, will test more.
- Windows 11 3070 Ti: Still gives me similar eye strain as Intel macbook, I'm able to work/play for few hours but then I want to give my eyes some rest and small headaches are coming as well. Slept bad during the night because of that. I didn't use any specific apps to disable dithering, just regular nvidia settings to force 8bit.
I did testing with opple, there is no flicker at all. Solid backlight at any brightness and at any color or grayscale.
With microscope I was able to detect dithering with MBP M3 connected on darker gray color. On bright colors its very hard to notice any dithering with 120/240fps. Dithering is present no matter if betterdisplay set to 8 or 10 bit.
If someone could share any good method how to disable dithering on Win11, that would be awesome, so I can test it.
After using this monitor for 3 days, I feel some tiredness at the back of my eyes, tired nape and small headaches.
madmozg Try to disable variable refresh rate to see if that fixes the flickering. Also if you didn't check all the settings then it might be overdrive or similar. At that resolution / framerate it no doubt uses display stream compression. No idea if DSC is as lossless as they say, but I guess there is no way around it.
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Returned Dell U4025QW after a month of testing. Conclusion:
- Works fine with my 3070 Ti and latest Win11 version. Set nvidia to 8bit and had no issues with basic windows stuff.
- BetterDisplay was not able to help with Intel macs to use 8bit on this monitor. Everytime i switch to 8bit with edid monitor still was showing 30bpc.
- BetterDisplay was indeed switching from 10bit to 8bit with Mac mini M2 and Macbook Pro M3, but I still had eyestrain because mac silicons are still sending dithered signal or pixel inversion, and its even more aggressive than intel macs. On dell monitor it was showing 24bpc.
Great monitor if you are working on windows PC. No PWM at all, its like an old dc dimming, I think it black panel LED or something like that. Blacks are really good, I also played some games on it, it was great. But my main work is on mac so to keep this expensive monitor just to run PC I didn't want to.
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I ended up with the glossy version of the Apple Pro Display XDR without the grainy nano texture. The clarity without any screen covering is insanely good with the high DPI, true 10bit and really high SDR brightness. I've mostly adapted again to the MBP M1 Max and the and iPhone 14 Pro Max now, and this display is definitely waaay better than those. I'll see if it stays this nice, but so far so good.
I decided to not research any eye strain while using this screen, not take any measurements, and not play around with any settings unless strictly needed, as I really want it to work and there obviously is some psychological component to all this as well. Currently running stock settings / profile with just Stillcolor.
There are very few tests of this display anywhere, and few places to actually see it in action. Few or no eye strain reports as well. For those that have the option and can handle the financials I'll advice taking a look at it. The second hand price isn't too bad. In my opinion it is nothing like the Studio Display that just felt like a Macbook.
async In my opinion it is nothing like the Studio Display that just felt like a Macbook.
So you've tried the Studio Display and the XDR is better?
I decided to not research any eye strain while using this screen, not take any measurements, and not play around with any settings unless strictly needed, as I really want it to work and there obviously is some psychological component to all this as well. Currently running stock settings / profile with just Stillcolor.
Understood, but I'd be interested in some measurements of the XDR at some point, considering professional reviewers haven't exactly gotten their grubby hands on it.
JTL Understandably. Used it extensively and have experienced zero eye strain. Do note that my issues is currently much milder than many here, and things have taken a step in the right direction lately. Still, it's exceptional to work at I would advice others to give it a try.
I mostly stayed away from my Macbook while I adapt and are running both at the native resolution with the same PPI, as I have a feeling that constantly seeing the same interface elements at different sizes can mess up accomodation. ChatGPT seemed to agree that there are higher order processes in the visual pathways that use matched patterns to assist accomodation, and that mixing PPI in theory can cause focus issues. Might be a relevant track for others to look into as well. @DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs
The little I used the Macbook now the screen is garbage compared to the Pro display, but doesn't really strain as easily.
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photon78s the SDR goes really bright compared to the Macbook. Didn't really try the XDR mode thru Lunar or BetterDisplay. I have no need for any more brightness than what is available with SDR. Can't say the same for the Macbook, where I frequently use extended brightness in the daytime.
It has pretty few dimming zones compared to newer mini leds. I think that can be beneficial, and unlike the Macbook I don't feel like I've staring at a led at all. This hellish glowing text that happens on the Macbook is also pretty much absent for me.
Also I don't feel annoyed by the 60 hz as it feels rather smooth. On the Macbook however it feels like everything is stuttering if I limit it to 60.
There is a technical white paper that has a lot of details on the backlight. https://www.apple.com/pro-display-xdr/pdf/Pro_Display_White_Paper_Feb_2020.pdf
Also the combo of glossy display and high dpi at true retina means that everything is sharp at all times, which at least feels like it gets rid of a lot of strain. My Mateview 28 in comparison looks like it has constant flickering rainbow sand on top of the display due to the anti-reflective coating with a grainy texture.
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async as I have a feeling that constantly seeing the same interface elements at different sizes can mess up accomodation
this is mostly true, on most screens I deal with this issue, it can also affect how you focus on real-life objects after using the screen too
BUT… in my experience, it seems to be VERY connected to the issue with the false 3D effect which frusturatingly affects so many screens (even as far back as the 2000s, I still feel that effect + see super obvious "forced oversharpening" white halos on a NEC CCFL TN from 2005 connected to a "safe" PC outputting 16bpp…)
the reason why I know this is that on my single truly "safe" screen, LG LP133WD2-SLB1 on IdeaPad Yoga 13, I can set the UI zoom level to any size I want, even super huge, and the distance I focus remains essentially the same. the UI elements focus just as easily.
for example, i can set this page to max zoom, and it's still easy to jump between the massive web page text and regular-sized taskbar without strain.
however, this laptop is the ONLY backlit screen that I can do this on.
the only other screens that work like this for me are e-ink — but this laptop panel is a WLED-backlit IPS (that even has some mild PWM and pixel inversion!) yet somehow feels entirely different from ANY other IPS/TN/VA/OLED I've used — including a few other LG IPS I've tried
on every other backlit screen so far, even a few that I deem "usable" or "mostly flat", the moment I increase the size or a large icon appears… I can feel pressure on the eyes changing and a feeling of "increasing closeness" or having to "learn to focus differently" on different-sized elements, like you are saying. but not on the Yoga 13
TLDR: yep this 100% affects lots of screens, but I have "living evidence" that it's actually possible for at least one backlit screen to not have this issue.
i wish i knew why. my only theory is that I see very little "post-processing / colors bleeding into nearby pixels / additional edge enhancement" compared to what I notice in others
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Tested quite a bit. There is massive flicker on grays. Even with adaptive sync turned off, and at all refresh rates, and all color modes. Variable refresh rate is not selected in Mac either. Not sure if it affects HDMI.
Somehow the image seems much more pleasant with DP 1.2 instead of DP 1.4 or DP 1.4(DSC). Tried all with the same color profile, as 60 hz. No idea tbh. Didn't find a quick way to check if Mac uses something else to process the signal for the old standard.
Sorry for the tag, but I've since then come across a few reviews of OLED panels using the SVM metric (devised by Philips) for evaluating temporal light modulation behavior.
80 nits is quite a substantial drop.
Not only that:
X-axis is grayscale (RGB values)
Y-Axis is SVM values (SVM =1 is modulation that 50% of people can perceive)
https://www.visosystems.com/media/TLA%20Tutorial%20EU.pdf
I'd argue that even the SVM<0.4 value that the EU proposes are not low enough for most.
This has definitely something to do with the gamma curve and black crush of OLEDs as a whole, would be interesting to tinker for people trying to use OLED smartphones.
For example:
- Using light mode on phone (funny how it's the opposite of what everyone recommends for OLEDs)
[I've personally found this to somewhat alleviate my issue on my AMOLED phone, not fix it entirely however as you're not eliminating the brightness drop + you're forced to use max brightness to avoid PWM] - Forcing lower contrast (so the font isnt too dark when on light background),
- Using black equalizer on desktop displays (which support it) to brighten darker shades of gray
JTL my uprtek mk350n meter calculates it but I did find it online.
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qb74 well I firstly tried in light mode since that's default and it was enough for me not to be able to continue messing with it. I even tried the full pwm mode which is 2160Hz at all brightness levels. I sold it to my friend and it was also not good for him either. It was a global model and he also owns 1 other global model and Chinese model of that x100 pro BUT the only one comfortable is the Chinese version which runs originos and not funtouchos. Super weird.
Regarding dark mode oddly I find dark mode to be most comfortable on my xiaomi 13T with a screen dimmer app further dimming since I use 55% brightness which is 2880hz / 0.08SVM
DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs on every other backlit screen so far, even a few that I deem "usable" or "mostly flat", the moment I increase the size … I can feel pressure on the eyes changing and a feeling of "increasing closeness" or having to "learn to focus differently" on different-sized elements, like you are saying. but not on the Yoga 13
You are using scaling and that turns on GPU scaling which was introduced with skylake.
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